jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi There Most of my work involves natural light and landscape - and at this time of year that means very rich evening light and tricky colours (so easy to turn delicate warm light into an over-saturated horror show!). I've been using Aperture for most of my work for the last 9 months, and I really do like it - at the moment it's not a possibility with the M8 - hopefully there will be support at a later date. In the meantime I needed to find something which worked - my problem has not been purple blacks, but how to make the most of the wonderful (huge) colour gamut the Leica produces. The first stop was C1 - the default profile is much much too yellow for evening light - I've tried others, and of course one can always fiddle with the White balance (irritating if you felt you'd got it right in camera). The result is cyan skies and a lack of green in foliage. So - that only really left ACR - unlike some I rather like ACR, but the embedded profile, although better for landscape, has a tendency to pink reds (berries are always a problem , and in this respect the M8 is no different. I tried using the ACR3.6 profile, which seems to work really well for tungsten portraits - but which isn't too good for landscapes either. In the end I've made some very simple changes to the 'embedded' profile in ACR - simply increasing the red hue by 14, and reducing the saturation a little. That seems to have done the job, and I'm getting nicely saturated colours. I also tried shooting jpg (I like to shoot jpg if they're good - like the Olympus E1 - it makes me take more care with my exposures). They're attractive - much greener than most of the other converters, but I'm afraid there are signs of tell-tale smearing in foliage, especially grass, it isn't bad, but it's not there in the ACR conversion ; it IS there in the C1 conversion in pine trees - not signifantly, but it is there. Here are some examples - the first two are taken with the CV15 - what's astonishing about this lens after using it with the R-D1 is that, at f8, I did no vignetting control whatsoever! These two were taken with the CV Ultron 28mm f1.9: (it was voigtlander day today!) I still haven't quite nailed the conversion to sRGB, and these have lost a little of their vibrancy in the conversion and reduction - still, the idea was to have a variety of shots with some different lighting. I'm completely overjoyed by the quality and detail of these files (the quality of the photographs may be a different issue!) The camera is a joy to use, and, at least for this kind of work, there is no need to use an IR filter. I just hope that the 'fix' doesn't involve a stronger filter which introduces cyan/magenta shifts across the frame as it did in the Kodak 14n. It's astonishing reading the bashing that the camera is getting, and then looking at an A2 print of one of these files - it's hard to believe that it's the same camera that they're talking about. I hope this was of some interest to someone! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 17, 2006 Posted November 17, 2006 Hi jonoslack, Take a look here M8 and Landscapes - workflow and conversion - some thoughts . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
davidada Posted November 17, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 17, 2006 Lovely photo's John, looks like around Dorking, Surrey? Why srgb I find it much less accurate than Adobe or colormatch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #3 Posted November 17, 2006 Lovely photo's John, looks like around Dorking, Surrey? Why srgb I find it much less accurate than Adobe or colormatch? Hi David I only use sRGB for the internet - why? mmm - 'cos I read somewhere that I should, and if you use Adobe, then they look rather flat on most browsers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 17, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 17, 2006 Dorking? I don't think so! Dorking is surburban hell on Earth. Those big skyscapes and architecture in Jono's portfolio suggest somewhere like East Anglia (Eastern England). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted November 17, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 17, 2006 Jon - Very nice work -- I'm glad you persisted so. However, all but the first seem a bit over sharpened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #6 Posted November 17, 2006 Dorking? I don't think so! Dorking is surburban hell on Earth. Those big skyscapes and architecture in Jono's portfolio suggest somewhere like East Anglia (Eastern England). Hi There Quite right - Norfolk Suffolk borders - in fact, half taken in Suffolk (first two) half in Norfolk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #7 Posted November 17, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jon - Very nice work -- I'm glad you persisted so. However, all but the first seem a bit over sharpened. Hi There Well, I think it's to taste - I don't do any sharpening in the conversion - maybe there's a little too much on the reduction to web size. After years with a dSLR, the general sharpness without an AA filter is a bit of culture shock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter41951 Posted November 17, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 17, 2006 Hi DavidI only use sRGB for the internet - why? mmm - 'cos I read somewhere that I should, and if you use Adobe, then they look rather flat on most browsers. Jono, great photographs - thanks. I also resize and SRGB for posting for the same reason! If I shouldn't..... You had much better weather than I did in Surrey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scho Posted November 17, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 17, 2006 Beautiful work Jono. I love the fine detail in these landscape images. I'm also planning on moving to an M8 for landscape work and using CV lenses I already have (same ones you used plus a couple of Heliars and a Nokton). I just hope Leica doesn't modify the firmware/lens coding to the point that 3rd party lenses can't be used to achieve the excellent performance that you have demonstrated with these samples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 17, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 17, 2006 Web browsers (none of them) display images very well, and none use Adobe RGB to calculate what they display. The closest you will get to seeing on a screen using a browser is to use sRGB as your final conversion before posting, but even this looks poor compared to opening a posted jpg in Photoshop, or something that understands colour properly. If Adobe made a web browser capable of displaying what is seen when using Photoshop, they'd make a killing Some commercial scans only scan to sRGB and lots of information is lost - obviously this is not an issue for M8/DMR users. Scanning at anything less than 16 bit is to lose a lot of data before you have even begun. (I always shoot in Adobe RGB and RAW - it pays to have as much information to hand at the beginning, only dropping info at a later stage.) When using C1, did you adjust the curves for each of the R/G/B channels individually? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #11 Posted November 17, 2006 [quote name= You had much better weather than I did in Surrey.[/quote] Hi Peter - there was a little window (or was that widow) but it was short lived, and tonight it's been raining raining raining! New Camera Weather! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #12 Posted November 17, 2006 Beautiful work Jono. I love the fine detail in these landscape images. I'm also planning on moving to an M8 for landscape work and using CV lenses I already have (same ones you used plus a couple of Heliars and a Nokton). I just hope Leica doesn't modify the firmware/lens coding to the point that 3rd party lenses can't be used to achieve the excellent performance that you have demonstrated with these samples. Hi Carl I'm sure there won't be anything to stop you using other M mount lenses. What has surprised me is how little vignetting there is on the 15 mmCV - The wall to wall sharpness is a new experience for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 17, 2006 Author Share #13 Posted November 17, 2006 Web browsers (none of them) display images very well, and none use Adobe RGB to calculate what they display. The closest you will get to seeing on a screen using a browser is to use sRGB as your final conversion before posting, but even this looks poor compared to opening a posted jpg in Photoshop, or something that understands colour properly. If Adobe made a web browser capable of displaying what is seen when using Photoshop, they'd make a killing Some commercial scans only scan to sRGB and lots of information is lost - obviously this is not an issue for M8/DMR users. Scanning at anything less than 16 bit is to lose a lot of data before you have even begun. (I always shoot in Adobe RGB and RAW - it pays to have as much information to hand at the beginning, only dropping info at a later stage.) When using C1, did you adjust the curves for each of the R/G/B channels individually? Hi Andy On the mac, Safari seems to do the best job with these - but I'm afraid it's a 'no win' situation I did try fiddling with the channels separately in C1, of course that's okay, but I want to find something which works for 'most' shots without special treatment. I love the Aperture workflow as well, so in the end, I'm hoping that they come up with the goods. Still - these may not be perfect, but they aren't horrid, and that warm light always causes me nightmares (never managed it with the D2x). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grober Posted November 17, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 17, 2006 It must be a CV kind of day. Taken with the CV 50/1.5 Nokton today around Noon local time. I'm not blown away by the sharpness but I thought the M8 handled the backlighting well in this shot. Overcast sky; JPG Fine; no manipulations, straight from the camera; ISO set to 320; WB is "Auto." -g Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9465-m8-and-landscapes-workflow-and-conversion-some-thoughts/?do=findComment&comment=96904'>More sharing options...
gumshoecamus Posted November 18, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 18, 2006 jono theses are lovely, especially the first one I think the j holmes dude makes some really great profiles for this sort of thing -- google him, really good for keeping blue skies and green foliage, while retaining colour highlights of berries, flowers etc but i read somewhere today that a colour guru says we all should all be using the _smallest_ colour space possible (srgb on the m8?) so that no colours are lost during any conversion, even for the web. does anyone have any knowledge about that ? I usually use eci or prophoto but like you, convert to srgb 2.1 for web (a web-designer friend tells me that is most reliable as most browsers don't colour manage) dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted November 18, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 18, 2006 jono theses are lovely, especially the first oneI think the j holmes dude makes some really great profiles for this sort of thing -- google him, really good for keeping blue skies and green foliage, while retaining colour highlights of berries, flowers etc but i read somewhere today that a colour guru says we all should all be using the _smallest_ colour space possible (srgb on the m8?) so that no colours are lost during any conversion, even for the web. does anyone have any knowledge about that ? I usually use eci or prophoto but like you, convert to srgb 2.1 for web (a web-designer friend tells me that is most reliable as most browsers don't colour manage) dave I just returned from a printing workshop in Arizona where Joe was the guest lecturer. He spent a number of hours discussing color spaces (these are not profiles!) which I will reduce to a bottom line. You should use a color space which is the smallest that will hold all the colors contained in the camera file.If you want to use Joes spaces, the ideal space for our digital cameras is DCam3. Both DCam4 and DCam5 are much larger than needed and other spaces e.g. Chrome100 Joseph Holmes is optimized for scanned film images. Joe provides 29 variants with each color space master so that by assigning one of the variants you can go from essentially black and white to quite oversaturated conditions. Remember that you convert to the master space then "assign" one of the chroma variants. Never convert to a variant. Hope this helps Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumshoecamus Posted November 18, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 18, 2006 woody, you beauty this is really useful information will investigate ! dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted November 18, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 18, 2006 Jono and others, One of the best kept secrets in photography is now out of the bag; Joe Holmes' colour spaces and numerous profiles to work with. Here is where to go: http://www.josephholmes.com/ I would suggest you prepare to spend some time there, and start with reading his pictures before reading his writing. If colour is your thing, testing your image by assigning various Holmes profiles until a satisfactory one seems appropriate can give a sumptuous quality to post production. And, he's one of the good guys. Sincerely...............Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 18, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 18, 2006 I just returned from a printing workshop in Arizona where Joe was the guest lecturer. He spent a number of hours discussing color spaces (these are not profiles!) which I will reduce to a bottom line. You should use a color space which is the smallest that will hold all the colors contained in the camera file.If you want to use Joes spaces, the ideal space for our digital cameras is DCam3. Both DCam4 and DCam5 are much larger than needed and other spaces e.g. Chrome100 Joseph Holmes is optimized for scanned film images. Joe provides 29 variants with each color space master so that by assigning one of the variants you can go from essentially black and white to quite oversaturated conditions. Remember that you convert to the master space then "assign" one of the chroma variants. Never convert to a variant. Hope this helps Woody A ha, you learned my secrets. LOL Good stuff Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 18, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 18, 2006 Proof is in the pudding. DMR 19mm Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9465-m8-and-landscapes-workflow-and-conversion-some-thoughts/?do=findComment&comment=97559'>More sharing options...
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