scaryink Posted August 27, 2009 Share #1 Posted August 27, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) With the release of the Sony 850 FF 25megapixel camera for $ 2,000 it is clear that Leica will have a difficult time to compete in the bigboy digital marketplace. It was much easier during the mechanical days when they could manufacture all parts with relatively low cost machines that last forever. Sadly, as made clear in the interesting autopsy by Mr. Norton, the M8 is hodgepodge of subcontracted parts and outsourced electronics. It is a kit camera. This is similar to Morgan, supported by a small group of dedicated enthusiasts. I suspect digital will not be so kind as the analogue world of motor cars. I speculate it costs Leica more for the sensor than this whole camera will be sold for. They just wont have the financial horsepower to go head to head with the large Japanese firms. The need for new products is also inherently against past company culture. I understand the digital rf has unique and valuable characteristics just like the Morgan's do. I fear however the newest digital offerings may go the way of the Edsel. I sure hope this is wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 27, 2009 Posted August 27, 2009 Hi scaryink, Take a look here The Leica digital M's are like Morgans. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Nicoleica Posted August 27, 2009 Share #2 Posted August 27, 2009 My M8 does not have 3 wheels. (It does sometimes contain ash though.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted August 27, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 27, 2009 I could get excited about a wooden camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 27, 2009 Share #4 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) With -- snip -- wrong. You really do not get it do you? I find this analysis most surprising I must admit. Edited August 27, 2009 by SJP Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 27, 2009 Share #5 Posted August 27, 2009 I speculate it costs Leica more for the sensor than this whole camera will be sold for. And the basis for this speculation is? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share #6 Posted August 27, 2009 And the basis for this speculation is? As said this is speculative on my part based on the following. I had a client (before they went public) that is a manufacturer of silicon etching machines. These machines are used to hone and refine the silicon wafers in some high tech form of acid bath in preparation for the circuitry etching. Each of these machines were about 1.5M + and this didnt include training or the cost of the clean rooms etc. Their technology reduced breakage by approx 10% if I remember right. Each wafer cost the manufacturer approx $ 100,000 before the etching process. I am sure that costs have declined since then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted August 27, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You really do not get it do you? I find this analysis most surprising I must admit. Beware of digital gremlins and trolls. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 27, 2009 Share #8 Posted August 27, 2009 As said this is speculative on my part based on the following... So presumably Sony selling that $2000 SLR are losing even more money than Leica per unit sold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted August 27, 2009 So presumably Sony selling that $2000 SLR are losing even more money than Leica per unit sold. Ah yes Steve I understand your question now. I'm a CPA (a CA in your neck of the woods) and perhaps am sometimes to cryptic in explanation.The cost of these machines spread out over more product, reduces the per unit cost. On top of this profit must be made by the manufacturer. Seeing as profit is earned on every unit and Leica doesn't consume that many units, their cost will be exponentially higher than the cost to Sony for example. The machines used for all their manufacturing can be cross programed for many types of cameras in many sizes. Leica doesnt have the breadth of product to amortize this cost or invest in electronics sensor manufacturing facilities. Sony is a formidable and innovative company. I'm sure every manufacturer looks over their shoulder at that technology giant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 27, 2009 Share #10 Posted August 27, 2009 The cost of these machines spread out over more product, reduces the per unit cost. Which presumably what Kodak do. Sorry but I find this notation that Leica will be losing money on every M9 they sell bizarre. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaryink Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted August 27, 2009 Steve I didnt say they were going to lose money at all. I said it will become increasingly difficult for Leica to keep up with the pace of change and innovation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 27, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 27, 2009 I didnt say they were going to lose money at all That was my interpretation of... I speculate it costs Leica more for the sensor than this whole camera will be sold for What other interpretation could there be? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 27, 2009 Share #13 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) It is a kit camera. This is similar to Morgan, supported by a small group of dedicated enthusiasts. Have to say, I am with SJP on this. The Morgan (which never was a "kit car") is often trotted out by the unthinking as a pejorative example of an anachronistic product. That is because the image uninformed people have in their minds is of this: not this... Oh, and around here CA stands for Chromatic Aberration. Regards, Bill Edited August 27, 2009 by bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 27, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 27, 2009 Bill, I have to say that second one is one hell of an ugly car. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted August 27, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) I had this one in mind. It's the M(odel) 9. But I am a rather ancient old bat. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited August 27, 2009 by Nicoleica Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/94640-the-leica-digital-ms-are-like-morgans/?do=findComment&comment=1007131'>More sharing options...
MikeMyers Posted August 28, 2009 Share #16 Posted August 28, 2009 I've now got an M8.2, and I'd love to be the owner of the first Morgan shown here (with 4 wheels). Unfortunately, I never got one when I could have afforded it, and now I suspect it's way out my price range. Still, I'd be happier in that car than in my Land Rover. No, I'd never want the second "Morgan" that looks like it's been all modernized. I find myself wishing for a lot of old things nowadays..... On the other hand, if I were to really get serious, for not much more than twice the probable price of an M9, I could get this: Hemmings Motor News: Auto Dealers - Hemmings Auto Classifieds feature cars for sale from auto dealers nation wide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted August 28, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 28, 2009 I understand the comparison but I don't agree. Some rough in the head business math tells me that Leica will probably sell 30,000 M9s over the next 3 years (product life). At $7,500 less dealer discount that comes to $5,250 per M9. Cost of goods (M9) should be somewhere around $2,500 to $3,000. That yields a gross profit of $2,250 to $2,750 per 9. Let's call it $2,500. Times 30,000 gives $75,000,000 or $25,000,000 million per year gross profit. Now that's not bottom line, but its money to keep the doors open. Toss in some lens sales, some little Leica sales, some S2 sales and I'd write Leica a bright future. No Morgan here. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem7 Posted August 28, 2009 Share #18 Posted August 28, 2009 But who HERE wants a big, bulky, fat Sony DSLR? Not me. Not gonna happen. Prediction: Leicas next digital M will be crazy successful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted August 28, 2009 Share #19 Posted August 28, 2009 Hmm, another up lifting inspirational positive post about Leica's pending demise based on zero facts, lot's of uninformed speculation about things the speculator doesn't know anything about, but backed up by ... erm, nothing. Let's try the math again based on more normal manufacturing assumptions, i.e. the cost of R&D, manufacturing, distribution and sales is less than the revenue received. According to my math we end up with a completely different conclusion. Aren't we all a cheerful lot around here lately? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted August 28, 2009 Share #20 Posted August 28, 2009 I've now got an M8.2, and I'd love to be the owner of the first Morgan shown here (with 4 wheels). Unfortunately, I never got one when I could have afforded it, and now I suspect it's way out my price range. Still, I'd be happier in that car than in my Land Rover. No, I'd never want the second "Morgan" that looks like it's been all modernized. I find myself wishing for a lot of old things nowadays..... I know what you mean. I do find that the following dead sexy Morgan appealing though. Btw, wrt to Land Rovers - I love my LR3 to bits ... it's known as the "Camera Bag". <gratuitous Leica M9 mention ... > Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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