50mm fingerprints: Summicron vs Zeiss Planar?

[lct]

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But again, we have no idea how a current cron would have fared so all we can do is guess.

All we can do is search like i did above. It's your turn now.

[batmobile]

All we can do is search like i did above. It's your turn now.

 

Each to their own, but I personally do not find web images terribly useful for reasons already stated. Side by side tests are a good starting point IMHO and Reid Reviews is a decent start. Sure, there are not that many images, but you do get a decent idea of what is going on and its a good starting point after which you do your own research. Although Sean shoots a M8 and I use film, I have found his results correlate very tightly with my own experiences, so I feel able to trust his reviews to give me a basic idea or draw up a short list.

 

IMO looking at the sea of images on the web with no idea of circumstances and trying to draw conclusions would be like trying to figure out social factors in survey of millions with no statistical analysis or conducting drug trials without a control. Its amazing what ones mind can come up with.

 

Back to the OP, two resources which are worth looking at are Reid Reviews and Erwin Puts' website both of which compare the planar to the current cron directly. There are lots of opinions from people who have owned both and they seem pretty well divided, with some professing the planar clearly superior and others the opposite. Unsurprisingly some claim they would be equally happy with either. I don't think you can make a bad decision.

Edited August 30, 2009 by batmobile

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[lars_bergquist]

Re asphs vs pre aphs, I disagree with your comment. I think many asphs see a more abrupt drop off in focus beyond then focus plane but a busier and 'less calm' bokeh overall. The asphs may in some case seem to be 'more out of focus oof' but that does not mean smoother or more appealing - once again, this is personal. Its interesting to see that according to Reids test of the new 24 3.8 it does not have this trait, nor do the newer 21/24 luxes. It would seem Leica has designed their new offerings with this in mind. Good for them.

 

Abrupt? More distinct, yes -- because the aspherical lenses do in general produce better definition in the plane of best focus, than the pre-asphericals. And the difference between 'very sharp and slightly unsharp' is of course greater than that between 'pretty sharp and slightly unsharp'.

 

It would be possible to do a >controlled< test of a 35mm Summicron ASPH versus a v.4 lens. One might set up an array of point-shaped LEDs on a wall, with a focusing target some 2 meters in front of the wall. Put a camera body on a sturdy tripod at the other end of the room and test the two lenses by focusing them on the target, putting out the room lights, switching on the LEDs and taking a picture. With the right kind of instrumentation it should even be possible to quantify the results.

 

This would not stop the whining however because the motivation of the whiners is personal and not to be found in the real world. Their whining proves to them that they are Very Knowledgeable Persons of Superior Discernment. Contrary evidence will just make them shift their arguments to the subjective 'no arguing with taste' side -- I have seen that happen. And they will be oblivious to the fact that this is inconsistent with their previous assertion that everybody knows exactly what 'bad bokeh' is. Man's craving for consistency is greatly overrated; it is a minority itch with some philosophers and scientists only.

 

The grumpy old man from the Age of Evidence

[batmobile]

Lars,

 

I saw a pretty convincing 'home test' with the 35 V4 vs asph in terms of apparent DOF, but can't remember where. I also saw oa different one on the 28 cron and elmarit asph which appeared to show the same. Theres no disputing the incredible performance of the asphs at the point of focus, even wide open. As usual, horses for courses and while it would be nice to have five lenses of each FL for every ocassion this tends to be a little impractical, so we choose our compromise. To be honest, I like both looks, but for different things.

 

For me, the ZMs work very well and I like their balance of attributes, but I would be equally happy with summarits or a variety of other lenses. What I have said thus far is not about pro Zeiss/anti-Leica zeal - quite the opposite. I would happily swap my 50 planar for a cron and go shoot it without a second thought. The 50 lux asph was very smooth, yet razor sharp, for sure, but very expensive, heavy and, well, I did not need all that it was (as at 1.4).

 

As well as objectively assessing lenses based on real merits/weaknesses one should determine how much it matters. Its amazing how much some people can make certain things matter! As an example, I realise the CV 35 pancake 2 has some weaknesses, but listening to some of the Leica biased comments on the lens you would be forgiven for thinking it is nasty harsh, has awful bokeh, poor tonal scale, severe vignetting etc! Its how these issues are sometimes presented that often irks me, without the slightest hint to its relevance to the application: making images.

 

FWIW I think the Summarits, (esp 35) overall, look the most appealing lenses Leica has made in a decade.

[lct]

Again what 35mm has to do with the OP's question here?

[giordano]

Maybe Leica should follow the example of Nikon's DC lenses and make a 50mm with user-adjustable bokeh.

[Frumkco]

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Wow! This has been really spirited but interesting discussion. Thank you all for participating : )

 

The physical handling of the lens is actually an additional factor for me—ahead of price. Despite amazing reviews of the Lux performance, based on my experience of handling (but not shooting) the current summilux and summicron in-store, I feel like I could work faster and more confidently with the new summicron.

 

Today I will visit B&H to compare the summicron and planar physically. Then I will read through all of these posts again and wait until after the Leica Webcast this week to make a decision.

 

I want to continue to purchase new from Leica to support Leica, but their steep price increase on this particular lens is just unfortunate (although I'm sure they had their reasons in the context of their overall lineup.)

 

If I am not mistaken, for the price of a new summicron (with the $200 rebate, about $1800) I can probably purchase both a new planar and a mint current version summicron and shoot with both of them. If that happens, I look forward to sharing examples and impressions of my own imperfect testing later on (film, processing and scanning will be the same, but that will be about it.)

 

Thank you all again,

 

Frumkco

[Frumkco]

Hello again all. Just an update for you. I went to B&H photo to buy the Summicron, but they wouldn't let me see either the summicron or the zeiss planar because "We don't have either available for display and we won't open either for you because they are 'very expensive' lenses." So I walked over to the used counter to look at the summicron there, and when I mounted the lens on my Leica MP I discovered that the rangefinder has a problem with it. Which I verified against other lenses and bodies. I was seriously disappointed because I just had this camera serviced by Leica only days prior. While I loved the way the summicron handled, I decided not to purchase a new lens until Leica corrects the problem with my camera first. I am keeping the summicron #11819 in the meantime, and my current 28 elmarit asph.

 

Of the 5 Leica M bodies I have owned over the years, 3 have been disappointing functionally. Crazy, right? I hoped the MP would be the Leica I keep forever, but now I'm having second thoughts...

 

A new question for you all, how are Voigtlander bodies? The R2A looked very interesting to me aestheticaly (even though it's not mechanical.) I realize the shutter won't be as quiet as the Leica MP, but is it more consistent and accurate hopefully? Sorry that this discussion is taking a new direction, but any additional thoughts you all may have would be most welcome.

[lars_bergquist]

Would you refer to those pics ?

REVIEW - ZEISS 50mm F2 PLANAR ZM The new Carl Zeiss classic ZM lenses for the Leica M system and Zeiss Ikon

I have not seen those pictures before, but already the first one illustrates the phenomenon very clearly. Now, with spherical, you get a reversal of effects to the front and to the rear of the plane of focus: With overcorrected, as in this case, you get rings that are high intensity at center, tapering off outwards, in front of the p.o.b.f., and the 'condom effect' behind it. With undercorrected, it is the other way around.

 

Which way do you prefer? My thinking is that we usually have more blur behind than in front, so it is the 'behind' that is more decisive. Your own taste decides. Why not fully corrected and no more? Yes of course, but designers do not give us spherical because they want to harass us. They do it because they have other aberrations too to consider, and they all hang together, most of them at least, in the most devilish ways. You gain some here, and lose some there -- unless you leap into another technological paradigm, which is what Leica did with the Summicron ASPH in 2004, after 45 years of 'old paradigm' Summiluxes. And that lens contains other advanced technology too.

 

But leading edge technology is not cheap.

 

The old man from the Age of the 7.5 cm f:3.5 Tessar

[lars_bergquist]

Batmobile, I do share your esteem for the new Summarit lenses. They are really good, especially the 35 and the 75. The 75 is one of my two fave lenses on the M8 (the other being the 28mm Summicron), but the coming changeover to the M9 will largely put it out of action, as the a.o.w. on full frame does not suit me. Oh well, I have a first class 90mm Elmarit-M ... AND a Summilux-M 1:1.4/35mm ASPH. The classical combo.

 

The old man from the Age of Berek Lenses

[wilfredo]

Would you refer to those pics ?

REVIEW - ZEISS 50mm F2 PLANAR ZM The new Carl Zeiss classic ZM lenses for the Leica M system and Zeiss Ikon

 

 

Those pictures certainly show the strengths of the Ziess 50mm Planar ZM. I'm not much of a techie, for me seeing is believing.

[wilfredo]

Hello again all. Just an update for you. I went to B&H photo to buy the Summicron, but they wouldn't let me see either the summicron or the zeiss planar because "We don't have either available for display and we won't open either for you because they are 'very expensive' lenses." So I walked over to the used counter to look at the summicron there, and when I mounted the lens on my Leica MP I discovered that the rangefinder has a problem with it. Which I verified against other lenses and bodies. I was seriously disappointed because I just had this camera serviced by Leica only days prior. While I loved the way the summicron handled, I decided not to purchase a new lens until Leica corrects the problem with my camera first. I am keeping the summicron #11819 in the meantime, and my current 28 elmarit asph.

 

Of the 5 Leica M bodies I have owned over the years, 3 have been disappointing functionally. Crazy, right? I hoped the MP would be the Leica I keep forever, but now I'm having second thoughts...

 

A new question for you all, how are Voigtlander bodies? The R2A looked very interesting to me aestheticaly (even though it's not mechanical.) I realize the shutter won't be as quiet as the Leica MP, but is it more consistent and accurate hopefully? Sorry that this discussion is taking a new direction, but any additional thoughts you all may have would be most welcome.

 

 

I'm wondering if you got your MP back and if you decided on a lens? I trust that by now your MP is fully functional again.

[batmobile]

This is bad luck. I have five Ms (3 MP and 2 M6) which I use regularly and an M2 and M3. Not one has had serious faults. All I ever had to do was get the RF adjusted on a used MP.

[ohnri]

The reviews (ReidReviews and the PebblePlace review) that are pointed to by the Zeiss proponents are indeed quite convincing. However, they are both for the M8 and, therefore, do not really apply for a FF camera. Also, both reviews are unequivocal in stating that the Summilux is superior and preferred if one has the means and muscle to pull it off.

 

Between the Summicron and the Planar it looks like a push on the M8 with the differences being contrast, price, color rendition and a bit of build quality.

 

I don't use either, when I need a 50 I reach for my Noct f/1 every time.

 

Best,

 

Bill

Edited May 13, 2010 by ohnri
spelling error

[wilfredo]

Bill,

 

Most of my research leads me to the same conclusion about the Summilux ASPH. I sold my 50mm Hexanon, a lens I preferred over the Summicron and I am poised to purchase a 50mm Summilux ASPH. I am on a a waiting list. I considered the M 50mm Planar which represents a considerable savings but I've decided not to compromise on this one. I sold my Hexanon with the intent of getting something significantly better and faster with exceptional IQ wide open @f/1.4 .

Edited May 13, 2010 by wilfredo

[cbretteville]

I currently have a 50 summicron #11819 with convex tab focus made in Canada. Love it. But I really like the idea of a focus ring I can grab onto, especially when shooting vertically...Can someone describe their personal impressions of any or all of the following lenses? (In case it makes a difference, I shoot film still.)

 

Leica 50 summicron (11819)

Leica 50 summicron (current)

 

If you love the look from the tabbed Summicron the choice should be simple, the current Summicron uses the same optical cell and the one you've got and has a focusing ring for you to use.

 

Carl

[patashnik]

I don't know about evidence, but at one point I had the Planar, the Summicron (last version) and the M-Hexanon. The first to go was the Summicron. Why? Not sure, but I found that I consistently liked the images I got from the Planar and M-Hexanon better.

 

As for "better", I'll leave that to someone else to decided. I have learned over the years that once I find the "right" lens, I stop worrying about resolution, sharpness, signature and what not. You might say that I get attached to the lenses in some strange way: I can pick it up and trust that it will do what I want of it. The brand has nothing to do with it: I prefer the 35mm Nokton f/1.2 to the 35mm Summilux ASPH, and the 21mm C-Biogon I just got to the 21mm Elmarit ASPH I owned about a year ago. And I'll never let go of the 35mm Summicron ASPH.

 

It doesn't make them better, it just means that I like them better. There are two Leica lenses that I sold off, and miss: The 50mm Summilux ASPH and 90mm Summicron ASPH. At one point I will get those back, but I'm in no hurry.

 

When I got the 21mm Zeiss C-Biogon, in the end it came down to the fact that I could take the cash that I saved (by not getting the Leica) and book me and my girlfriend in for a week at the Carnevale in Venezia next year. She seems to be pleased with that decision

[batmobile]

Patashnik, quite! At some point you have to decide where to draw a line as diminishing returns kicks in and then set about taking photographs that make sense of owning the kit in the first place!

 

I still love my CV 35 pancake II, another lens that some gear heads dismiss as having bad bokeh etc. It does not, because I have tested it just to prove to myself what the score really is.

 

My planar still stuns me with its performance from wide open to stopped down, its flare resistance and its generally very pleasing bokeh. If I ever replace it, it would be with a 50 Summilux asph lux as I am now doing a lot of shooting (environmental portraits) in exceedingly low light and the separation of focus would be handy sometimes, not to mention one more stop. For anything else, the planar is still an absolutely incredible lens. At just over 200g and best value in the ZM line, why not?

[wilfredo]

6/12/10 Still no 50mm Summilux ASPH. It looks like mine hasn't been manufactured yet.

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[wilfredo]

6/12/10 Still no 50mm Summilux ASPH. It looks like mine hasn't been manufactured yet.

 

 

I was wrong about that. My silver Summilux ASPH to my surprise arrived today.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/people/129518-meant.html