jaapv Posted August 31, 2009 Share #61 Posted August 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not quite the same. The development costs on the M8.2 will have been written off, making it cheaper to produce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M8 discontinued?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted August 31, 2009 Share #62 Posted August 31, 2009 Has anyone seen anything officially about discontinuing M8 or M8.2 from Leica? Jaapv you posted that M8 has been discontinued other people say the reverse.....is there anything official ...there is just over a week to go before the expected M9 announcement What is so strange about a model that has been superseded by its successor a year ago not being produced any more? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 31, 2009 Share #63 Posted August 31, 2009 Production cost of M8.2 and M9 should be in the same range. Selling the M8.2 as a entry level camera will then kill Leicas margin, and probably also decrease M9 sales. Not the best business proposition I've seen. I think this is a realistic assumption. If it is true that a FF-M needs a different body (look at Mark Norton's thread about this) and completely different electronics besides the sensor, it will be hard for Leica to maintain two different lines of production. Only a constantly high demand for the M8 would justify this. Leica's old strategy to produce different models at the same time (Standard, II, III, IIIa; IIf, IIIf; M2, M3), depended on modular variations on a common basis. I think the missing common basis with other models (bodies and lenses) was the economical reason for giving up the production of the R-System. So any speculation about the maintenance of M8 production will depend on how much a future M9 body and electronics will differ from the M8. If there are big differences we will rather see a future "downgraded" M9 on the M9 basis than than a continuation of the M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 31, 2009 Share #64 Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Not quite the same. The development costs on the M8.2 will have been written off, making it cheaper to produce. I understand that is purely an accounting concept and not affecting the real money at all. Some companies will use one big bucket for R&D, others will charge it to each product. Same with warranty - charge it to a bucket and make an accrual from every sale, or focus on it by model. "What is so strange about a model that has been superseded by its successor a year ago not being produced any more?" Might make more sense if you consider the M8.2 to be a 'fix' rather than a model - a Mark II upgrade as such. Think we can agree that the next version will be a new 'model'. That simply leaves the question with Leica of whether to drop both the M8 and the M8.2, or leave one/both there to expand the appeal to a wider customer base and increase revenue. With today's pricing, it seems a no brainer, but although Leica will need to be able to justify/explain the difference the pricing and maybe manage the impact on the used market, it's completely in their hands. The nearer the price of the M9 is to the launch price of the M8.2 the more interesting the pricing strategy will be, all IMO. BTW, can anyone confirm that the M8 significantly outsells the M8.2 today? Edited August 31, 2009 by Rolo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted August 31, 2009 Share #65 Posted August 31, 2009 Well, if the French dealer's prices were to be believed the M9 will only be 500 Euros more expensive than the current M8.2. Obviously that won't lead to many M8.2 sales if the suggested M9 specs prove to be accurate. So if Leica do keep the M8.2 I'd expect it to be priced at M8 levels, or even lower. I's also possible that Leica would retain the M8 at a reduced price rather than the M8.2. That would have the effect of having two cameras - M8 and M9 - with a greater difference in specs between them. All speculation, we'll know in just over a week. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 31, 2009 Share #66 Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) ...Selling the M8.2 as a entry level camera will then kill Leicas margin, and probably also decrease M9 sales... Why so? M8 is a 10 MP crop camera, M9 will be a 18MP full frame if any. Not the same beasts. Canon, Nikon and Sony sell both, why not Leica? Suffice it to remove the sapphire LCD of the M8.2, replace the black paint by black chrome and make it an M8.3 for EUR 3,500 more or less that's all. Edited August 31, 2009 by lct Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 31, 2009 Share #67 Posted August 31, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My understanding is that the M9 will be £4990 but who knows? I'm one of those who think Leica need an entry level model at lower cost to attract users in with clear and worthwhile blue sky between it and the M9. Otherwise, it would be like Nikon only selling the D3x and Canon only the EOS 1dS III and expecting new customers to come running. Most of all, I think they will want to put the old and expensive electronics package behind them and leverage the investment in the Maestro chipset. Once you have paid for its development and the tools to use it, the marginal cost is small and the total cost can be written off over a larger number of cameras. All that effort spent improving JPEGs in the S2 will add real benefit if implemented with just a few parameter changes in the M9, for example. It would also, for example, be possible to use the same board in an M8.x replacement and an M9 with some cost reduction for the cropped sensor camera, for example, smaller and slower RAW data buffer. So if the M9 is the new top end M camera, I think there's a role for a lower end camera, say, M8 price or lower with some cost taken out compared to the M9. Finish, glass, sensor. Keep in mind too that these products are priced according to what the market will bear, which may have little to do with the cost of making the thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted August 31, 2009 Share #68 Posted August 31, 2009 Keep in mind too that these products are priced according to what the market will bear, which may have little to do with the cost of making the thing. Only as long as the price covers the production costs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted August 31, 2009 Share #69 Posted August 31, 2009 my dealer told me that there will be no more an m8 or m8.2 because the quality of these cameras is no more acceptable for leica.(especially the iso issue - u don't need the superb leica lenses if u only can use them up to 320 iso!!!!!!!) and i think thats true. the m8 is an old camera today. anyhow we will see cheers andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted August 31, 2009 Share #70 Posted August 31, 2009 My understanding is that the M9 will be £4990 but who knows? I'm one of those who think Leica need an entry level model at lower cost to attract users in with clear and worthwhile blue sky between it and the M9. Otherwise, it would be like Nikon only selling the D3x and Canon only the EOS 1dS III and expecting new customers to come running. Most of all, I think they will want to put the old and expensive electronics package behind them and leverage the investment in the Maestro chipset. Once you have paid for its development and the tools to use it, the marginal cost is small and the total cost can be written off over a larger number of cameras. All that effort spent improving JPEGs in the S2 will add real benefit if implemented with just a few parameter changes in the M9, for example. It would also, for example, be possible to use the same board in an M8.x replacement and an M9 with some cost reduction for the cropped sensor camera, for example, smaller and slower RAW data buffer. So if the M9 is the new top end M camera, I think there's a role for a lower end camera, say, M8 price or lower with some cost taken out compared to the M9. Finish, glass, sensor. Keep in mind too that these products are priced according to what the market will bear, which may have little to do with the cost of making the thing. Totally agree and would add that: 1 Hopefully this is the Sept 9 announcement (ie M9 FF, M9 low cost / price) 2 They have M9 product already to ship on Sept 10th....hoefully they have built M9 inventory to go and that is why no M8's at Solms 3 They have already an advanced devt of a S2 junior at much lower price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 31, 2009 Share #71 Posted August 31, 2009 3. would be very nice, but it would not fit with the announcement "No R10, but a solution by another maker" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreyg Posted August 31, 2009 Share #72 Posted August 31, 2009 It seems Leica is constantly moving in the direction of "top quality", not necessarily fettered by pricing strategies. Thus, it makes little sense to have an M8 in play while an M9 is being made. You can hear them now: "why is Leica making a sub-standard M camera?". They won't tolerate that at all. One can see them making a high quality item for a different (less expensive) market - thus all the other smaller electronic cameras. But there is no indication that they would ever make a budget M. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 31, 2009 Share #73 Posted August 31, 2009 It seems Leica is constantly moving in the direction of "top quality", not necessarily fettered by pricing strategies. Thus, it makes little sense to have an M8 in play while an M9 is being made. You can hear them now: "why is Leica making a sub-standard M camera?". They won't tolerate that at all. One can see them making a high quality item for a different (less expensive) market - thus all the other smaller electronic cameras. But there is no indication that they would ever make a budget M. A short view on Leica's histrory could perhaps give an idea what could be ahead (not because Leica is trapped in his own history but because it shows what worked well and what didn't work). During the times of Leica III-models the II and standard models went well for them: not much less in features, same construction basis, same quality. Same goes for the M3 und M2. Leica M1 or CL didn't bring them any profits - substandard for the M1, completely different construction for the CL. Those principles are quite easy. I think they will be followed as well in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 31, 2009 Share #74 Posted August 31, 2009 ...but a solution by another maker" Did you hear this - "by another maker"? All I could read about the announcement was: "we are looking for a solution...." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted August 31, 2009 Share #75 Posted August 31, 2009 Well Thrid, Stefan Daniel disagrees with you. M8's still work just fine and will do after any new models come out too. That line of thought may have worked with the film bodies, but in the world of digital a 5 year old camera is a door stop and very unsound business thinking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted August 31, 2009 Share #76 Posted August 31, 2009 Only as long as the price covers the production costs. Not necessarily, if the profit is expected to be made on additional lens sales. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 31, 2009 Share #77 Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Did you hear this - "by another maker"? All I could read about the announcement was: "we are looking for a solution...." Well, actually it was said that it would not be built by Leica as I recall. It would probably be tweaked and badged by Leica, I suppose. The text was not "we are looking...", but "there will be a solution", with the emphasis on "will be". Edited August 31, 2009 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted August 31, 2009 Share #78 Posted August 31, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted by adli Only as long as the price covers the production costs. Not necessarily, if the profit is expected to be made on additional lens sales. Sounds like a high risk strategy to me. The additional lens sales has to cover both the loss on the M8s and to deliver some margins on the lens sales, wich means the ones who buys a cheap M8s will have to buy some expensive lenses to make this strategy work out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted August 31, 2009 Share #79 Posted August 31, 2009 Sounds like a high risk strategy to me. The additional lens sales has to cover both the loss on the M8s and to deliver some margins on the lens sales, wich means the ones who buys a cheap M8s will have to buy some expensive lenses to make this strategy work out. Agree - but IMHO: (a) it wouldn't be the first time that Leica goes for a high-risk strategy (see the launch of the S2); and ( I don't know what margin Leica makes on lenses - I suspect it's fairly high, even on the less expensive ones. Also, I know a couple of Leica users who bought their Leica (film, admittedly) bodies on eBay for a very low price but spent many times more in new lenses because they believe - rightly or wrongly, but this is another topic - that "lenses are all that matters"... Again, hard to say without specific market and margin data, but it *may* work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted August 31, 2009 Share #80 Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Well Thrid, Stefan Daniel disagrees with you.M8's still work just fine and will do after any new models come out too. You know, there is the distinct possibility that he may be wrong. People do make mistakes, you know? Or he is trying to obfuscate the issue. Once the M9 hits the market the M8.x will no longer be viable to be sold side by side. For one thing in terms of IQ it will be totally out of step with the rest of the lineup, not to mention the IR filters etc. It will cost a lot more to produce than the newer cameras and there is no way Leica will keep a separate production line running to build a 3 year old camera, when they get swamped by orders for the new line up. The M8 still takes good pictures, but it's time to gracefully leave the party. I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction for the 9th M9 - Probably full frame. They are designing an awful lot of new lenses that cover full format (Noct-II etc), so I would be surprising if it was APS-H (x1.33). CL-D - APS-C or APS-H in a prosumer body. Could basically be an M9 with a smaller sensor. If they are smart they will seal it like the D300 is. Should be a no brainer if they use the same body as the M9 (See Nikon 3D / 3Dx) and / or Camera X - There have been various hints at something very different that will even take R lenses. Could this be a modular system? You pick what type of viewfinder etc you want to use etc. Think a RED Scarlet. The price depends on how many options you pile on. D-LUX 5 - Could be the Panasonic GF1 Edited August 31, 2009 by thrid Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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