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wilfredo

M9 Frame Lines

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This has been a thread with all the necessary ingredients:

 

Extremely high knowledge of a specific field, scientific disagreement and a near fight!

 

May I ask a simple question at the end: Is there no chance that the M9 will have 24 mm framelines built in? I am lusting for the 24 mm Summilux so then I shall have to buy an external finder?

 

A bit of arithmetic suggests that with a full-frame body the same thickness as an M8 and the traditional M2-4-6-7-8 range/viewfinder design you could have a 24mm frame if the magnification was reduced to about 0.50. Getting it at 0.72 or higher magnification would require major redesign of the R/VF.

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May I ask a simple question at the end: Is there no chance that the M9 will have 24 mm framelines built in? I am lusting for the 24 mm Summilux so then I shall have to buy an external finder? Åmund

 

Not to worry...when a 28 lux arrives, you'll lust after that, too...and the FOV on a FF M9 will be even greater than the 24 on the M8.

 

Jeff

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Not to worry...when a 28 lux arrives, you'll lust after that, too...and the FOV on a FF M9 will be even greater than the 24 on the M8.

 

Jeff

 

You´re probably right!

 

Åmund

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Not to worry...when a 28 lux arrives, you'll lust after that, too...and the FOV on a FF M9 will be even greater than the 24 on the M8.

 

Jeff

 

Actually I am looking foward to having my lux 24 outside of the Frame Lines in a FF M9, much like I enjoy my 21mm view on the M8. Sometimes I like to shoot full FOV...

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A bit of arithmetic suggests that with a full-frame body the same thickness as an M8 and the traditional M2-4-6-7-8 range/viewfinder design you could have a 24mm frame if the magnification was reduced to about 0.50.

 

Exactly. Which is why Leica will not opt, in my view, for a 24mm frame in the M9 finder. It would compromise the use of other lenses (50, 75 and 90mm, let alone 135mm) too much. Which is why Leica have never done it in a FF camera. It is pretty safe to assume that Leica will fit 28, 35, 50, 75 and 90mm framelines into the M9 finder. I personally would love to see a 135mm frame as well, but since to the best of my knowledge the 135 apo lens isn't even coded, that will likely remain a dream.

 

Andy

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I vaguely wonder, about this issue of frames, if can be that M9 would have a NEW finder system...with total or partial abandoning of the "frame system" which, undoubtly, is respectably aged... something different, in my opinion could be possible to engineer ( haven't time to think seriously of, but some kind of "VF zooming" activated someway by lens recognition...???)

 

Otherwise, a standard 28-35-50-75-90 probably is the most viable hipotesis... seems that they don't care so much of 135... unless they revitalize the "goggles" (after all they did it with the Macro 90) on a new 135.

Edited by luigi bertolotti

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a 135 can be coded so that you get the Exif data with the M8. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the classic M6/M7 framelines of 28 through to 135. The ONE thing that will make me buy an M9 will be being able to use my 28 as it was designed to be used. I'll also be SO happy that I got the Frankenfinder for the plethora of wider lenses I've picked up since getting the M8 (15 CV / 18 Zeiss alongside the 21 pre-asph I've had for years...)

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I personally would love to see a 135mm frame as well, but since to the best of my knowledge the 135 apo lens isn't even coded, that will likely remain a dream.

Andy

a 135 can be coded so that you get the Exif data with the M8.

 

Myself, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the classic M6/M7 framelines of 28 through to 135. The ONE thing that will make me buy an M9 will be being able to use my 28 as it was designed to be used. I'll also be SO happy that I got the Frankenfinder for the plethora of wider lenses I've picked up since getting the M8 (15 CV / 18 Zeiss alongside the 21 pre-asph I've had for years...)

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I vaguely wonder, about this issue of frames, if can be that M9 would have a NEW finder system...with total or partial abandoning of the "frame system" which, undoubtly, is respectably aged... something different, in my opinion could be possible to engineer ( haven't time to think seriously of, but some kind of "VF zooming" activated someway by lens recognition...???)

Sorry, Luigi, a simple "no"to this one

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Seems as if this thread (and all the other rumours about a "full-frame" M9) were only started to give non-native users of the English language a good opportunity to practize if-clauses:

 

If the assumption that the field of view in the M-Viewfinder depends on the thickness of the camera's body is true and

 

if a future full-framed digital M will have a thicker body than the traditional Ms but one as thick as the M 8 and

 

if it will have a traditional viewfinder and

 

if there will ever be Leica Camera with these features and

 

if it will be a success comparable at least to the M6 and

 

if Leica will not make the decision to abandon one of the best lenses Leica ever made (i.e. the 135-mm Apo-Telyt),

 

i should (right???) think that they will (right???) offer several options for the viewfinder's magnification, like they did for the M6 (TTL). This could mean: 0.54/0.68/0.80. The first versions would have framelines for lenses from 28 to 90mm the last one from 35 to 135 mm.

 

Would there be any problem with this, besides many threads of many people asking which were the best?

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If the assumption that the field of view in the M-Viewfinder depends on the thickness of the camera's body is true and

 

if a future full-framed digital M will have a thicker body than the traditional Ms but one as thick as the M 8 and

 

if it will have a traditional viewfinder and

 

if there will ever be Leica Camera with these features and

 

if it will be a success comparable at least to the M6 and

 

if Leica will not make the decision to abandon one of the best lenses Leica ever made (i.e. the 135-mm Apo-Telyt),

 

 

 

Then you will have an M9 my son!

 

 

(With apologies to Rudyard Kipling.)

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i should (right???) think that they will (right???) offer several options for the viewfinder's magnification, like they did for the M6 (TTL).

 

Uli - absolutely correct on both counts - and you write better, clearer English than the vast majority of my undergraduate students at King's College, London University!!! A pleasure to see such clear expression.

 

So to all those who don't have English as a mother tongue, but who make such a strong contribution to the forum, Danke, Bedankt, 謝謝您, Dziękuję, Merci, Grazie, Σε ευχαριστώ, Gracias etc...

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Nothing prevents Leica from releasing three different versions of the camera -0.58x - 0.72x - 0,85x, but I doubt it very much. My bet is they will offer only a single version and this is likely to be 0.72x ( or very near).

My personal preference would be 0,58x. It's always possible to screw a 1,35x magnifier and get 0.78x. It's impossible to enlarge the field of view of a 0.85x finder

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It's impossible to enlarge the field of view of a 0.85x finder

 

Tim Isaac makes a .85 magnifier...net result .72 (.85 x .85)...would not be as accurate, but mathematically equivalent.

 

Jeff

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For what it may be worth (dimensions in mm):

 

M6 Body depth 33.6 VF horiz 22.6 VF vert 15.7

M5 Body depth 33.9 VF horiz 21.1 VF vert 14.5

M8 Body depth 36.9 VF horiz 22.6 VF vert 18.3

 

(This software makes constructing a table almost impossible!!!)

Edited by john_newell

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Nothing prevents Leica from releasing three different versions of the camera -0.58x - 0.72x - 0,85x, but I doubt it very much. My bet is they will offer only a single version and this is likely to be 0.72x ( or very near).

My personal preference would be 0,58x. It's always possible to screw a 1,35x magnifier and get 0.78x. It's impossible to enlarge the field of view of a 0.85x finder

 

Thats right.

 

Though I hope Leica will stick to it's very old tradition of causing nightmares for it's customers, who cannot decide which of many versions is the very best one.

 

And it will keep the forum going.

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I have been rethinking all this, take:

 

F1 focal length front element (- lens), define F1 as positive number (to make life easier)

F2 focal length eyepiece (+ lens)

 

Magnification M = F1/F2, M < 1, F2 > F1

 

Body thickness B = F2-F1

 

Solve for F1 = B/(1/M - 1) and F2 = F1/M = B/(1-M)

 

Take B = 36.9 mm (M8)

 

Then we get:

M = 0.58, F1= 50.95, F2 = 87.85, F2-F1 = 36.9

M = 0.72, F1= 94.89, F2 = 131.17, F2-F1 = 36.9

M = 0.85, F1= 209.10, F2 = 246.00, F2-F1 = 36.9

 

So the magnification can be chosen at will, independent of the body thickness.

 

The angle of view in the viewfinder is governed by the size of the front element and the body thickness (via the tunnel concept). In combination with the magnification this will impose limits on which framelines can be shown, as was the case with all other M viewfinders. As the M8 is slightly thicker (about 10%) the angle of view is reduced by 10% if the front element has the same physical dimensions. This however is not cast in stone I believe.

 

Conclusion: pretty much any magnification and any set of framelines can be accomodated in the M8 and future M rangefinders. Clearly reducing the body depth to the M6 value is still desirable for handling & esthetic reasons. In addition there are design constraints on the size of the rangefinder front element.

 

It is governed by design & esthetics, not by optics as such.

Edited by SJP

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Stephen - a constructive contribution! Thanks. Looks like my ideal is possible (same as M6/M7) but that there's potential for a camera with frame lines that start at 24 and stop at 90... which would suit many too... And good for Leica to have the income stream for all those options

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