80mm Summilux R

[Jamie Roberts]

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Jamie,

 

I appreciate your openness but I don't see what's annoying about the bokeh especially of the first shot posted here at f/1.4. It may not be to your liking but saying it is annoying is pretty extreme. I have a good enough photographic eye ten times validated by the mostly positive feedback I get for my work and IMHO it is a very pleasing image, mind you it is not my style to shoot wide open, I just wanted to get a feel for the boken and I'm pleased. Take into consideration that it was shot in the shade during early evening when the Sun was going to sleep, the flowers did not have a smooth even bright light source as in your shots. Also take into consideration that it was shot at an ISO of 1000, and I did no post-processing. Your shots are luminous because of the light source, nothing wrong with that, but the luminance was not produced by the bokeh. I'm sorry you don't find my picture pleasing.

 

As I've mentioned earlier, I was one of those people hoping for an R10. Leica lost a bunch of us on that one, where else can we turn? Canon and Nikon are the obvious options.

 

Hey Wilfredo--I wasn't commenting on your eye in the slightest! You have a great eye, and I like your work very much.

 

What I don't like about the Zeiss bokeh in your shots above (and in the previous one posted) is that it looks a little harsh, and doesn't look like the 80 R Lux at all. That's true, I think, regardless of your (great) eye.

 

Though as I actually said in my post, it's kind of hard to see in your flowers, which is why I want you to shoot more typical "bokeh" testing things. I also only said it "was a bit annoying" and that "it might just be that (particular) shot". There also isn't enough light in the very first shot to actually see the OOF areas very clearly.

 

So I'm sorry if if you took that as a comment on the overall shot.

 

And while there might be some light differences in our shots, I was shooting at ISO 800 on the DMR--it wasn't exactly bright.

 

As hard as this is to believe--because it is hard if you haven't actually used the lens or others like it--the "luminance" the the OOF areas is NOT just down to the light; it's actually the 80 R Lux lens interacting with the low light.

 

BTW--the nocti does the same thing. I've seen it many times in very low light due to the outstanding flare rejection in those lenses. They're not the highest contrast lenses--where the Zeiss shines--but you do get benefits from the glass and design you don't get in other lens designs.

 

So I see the bokeh here as not particularly smooth (look at the whites in the name tags and the flowers, despite the low light. To me the "double border" there is annoying. Not a deal breaker, but not optimal ):

 

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Don't misunderstand me: not-so-attractive bokeh doesn't make the shots poor in the slightest, and as I said before, the trade-off you get in contrast comes, perhaps, at this price. But there is a significant difference here IMO.

 

FWIW too--the flare rejection the Mandler design lenses have also often creates wild / ugly bokeh with certain light sources. Looking at wide-open Noctilux or 80 R lux shots of lit Christmas trees can make you feel sick But the effect they create in more subtle light is what's important.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Jamie Roberts

[wilfredo]

Jamie,

 

You and others have way more experience with bokeh than I do, I never really explored this quality in a photo until I started observing some of the Leica lens shots on this forum done with lenses that have a particular strength in this area. I've always been more attracted to contrast and sharpness and almost always shoot at f/8, not really thinking about bokeh. That has always been the case for me with M cameras and various Leica lenses. Having said that I've become more intrigued by this lesser appreciated quality and you are adding to my education in this regard.

 

The picture of the gentlemen was done in harsh light at f/8 and I did post processing on it that probably affected the bokeh, but I can live with it, his face was what mattered most to me. The second shot of the flowers I don't really care for too much, but it is the first shot where I find the bokeh pleasing. That is my only point here, I like the image, I don't find it the least bit annoying (that's what I reacted to) and have no complaints about it, and to my untrained bokeh eye, it is pleasant. Maybe I should leave well enough alone and not get too caught up on this bokeh thing because it will probably end up costing me more money for another lens :-).

 

I cropped the area where I think the bokeh is best so you can have another look. Now that my curiosity has been awakened I will continue to explore bokeh and see where it leads me.

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Edited September 8, 2009 by wilfredo

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[wilfredo]

Now that I'm paying closer attention to bokeh, I did a little post processing on this image to improve the bokeh, although I gather that post-processing would be cheating and not acceptable to the bokeh connoisseur.

After looking at some of the shots on this thread in more subtle light with an R lens, like Ben's portrait, I can see your point more clearly about bokeh.

 

Cheers!

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Edited September 8, 2009 by wilfredo

[wilfredo]

To quote myself:

 

"Maybe I should leave well enough alone and not get too caught up on this bokeh thing because it will probably end up costing me more money for another lens :-)."

 

It just so happens that last month I sold my 90mm M Elmarit since I hardly ever used it. I've decided to give the 90mm Elmarit R a go and found one today on E-bay difficult to resist. It was a whopping $530.03 and comes with the needed adapter for use on my Canon 5D Mark II. I will probably end up using it for portraits where I don't need a fast aperture, detailed sharpness and contrast, and would prefer a lovely bokeh :-) Here's the description of what I just bought:

 

90mm f2.8 Elmarit R lens in Mint- condition. Glass is perfect. No scratches, haze or fungus. Click stops are distinct, Focus is silky smooth. No signs of use that I can see, but it has been used so I call it Mint-. This is the last E55mm filter version and is the same optical design as the legendary f 2.8 Elmarit lens for the M System. Comes with B+W 55mm UV filter, original rear cap, and a brass Leica R to Canon EOS Adapter to use this superb Leica lens on your Canon digital camera. I am also including the matching Leica Elpro 3 close-up lens, made in Germany, that turns this 90 into a closes focusing near macro lens without loosing a single stop.

 

Cheers!

[Jamie Roberts]

To quote myself:

 

"Maybe I should leave well enough alone and not get too caught up on this bokeh thing because it will probably end up costing me more money for another lens :-)."

 

{snipped}!

 

 

Hey Wilfredo--you got it! I've certainly been down this road, and that curiosity invariably leads to more lenses

 

But congrats on the 90 Elmarit R! That's not a lens I know much about, so you'll have to let us know how you like it!

 

And thanks for the detailed response on your other shots. You're right that the post-processing could have made the OOF areas worse (and also that you can improve things slightly with post processing as well).

[roguewave]

Wilfredo, congrats on the 90 Elmarit. It is a very fine lens, ultra sharp for portraits. Don't over sharpen. Like the R24, it is not that easy to master right out of the gate. Take as many test shots wide open as possible until you can fully see the real DOF at 2.8.

 

Since the lens is sharp, decide what features are the most meaningful, not in a literal way, but if I may, aesthetically. For me the Bokeh is not just a pretty background, but the bridge between the mystery you leave by not stopping down & allowing the viewer to "finish" the frame for themselves. It's not everyone's style, but it is a very singular, if not unique product of Leica engineering. No Zeiss lens I have ever used, even those for my Hasselblad, can conjure that magic.

 

I don't believe that the bokeh in & of itself makes the image "better" or technically superior. For me, I fell in love with this property of the fast lenses because of how they make me feel, not because the pictures are always prettier. I love ambiguity and the way light appears in places it shouldn't. The R80 Lux, M75Lux & the older Nocti are the best examples. They appear to "manufacture" light where it isn't & to displace it so that you get this unexpected feeling of joy & wonder. Be patient with this lens. There was many a time I almost threw it away because of my flaws.

[Jamie Roberts]

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Wilfredo, congrats on the 90 Elmarit. It is a very fine lens, ultra sharp for portraits. Don't over sharpen. Like the R24, it is not that easy to master right out of the gate. Take as many test shots wide open as possible until you can fully see the real DOF at 2.8.

 

Since the lens is sharp, decide what features are the most meaningful, not in a literal way, but if I may, aesthetically. For me the Bokeh is not just a pretty background, but the bridge between the mystery you leave by not stopping down & allowing the viewer to "finish" the frame for themselves. It's not everyone's style, but it is a very singular, if not unique product of Leica engineering. No Zeiss lens I have ever used, even those for my Hasselblad, can conjure that magic.

 

I don't believe that the bokeh in & of itself makes the image "better" or technically superior. For me, I fell in love with this property of the fast lenses because of how they make me feel, not because the pictures are always prettier. I love ambiguity and the way light appears in places it shouldn't. The R80 Lux, M75Lux & the older Nocti are the best examples. They appear to "manufacture" light where it isn't & to displace it so that you get this unexpected feeling of joy & wonder. Be patient with this lens. There was many a time I almost threw it away because of my flaws.

 

Perfectly put, Ben! Thanks--that's exactly what I was trying to get at about the 80 and the Nocti too.

[wilfredo]

Ben,

 

I will certainly follow your advice. Your poetic description of bokeh has great appeal to me. Any talk of mystery will peak my interest. I will continue to explore this arena and glad to add a Leica lens for use with the Canon 5D Mark II. Can't wait to get the lens and try it out. I never gave my M Elmarit much use (I sold it a few weeks ago) but I think this will be different, it is much easier using a focal length like this on a DSLR where you can actually see the whole picture in the view finder - full size.

 

Cheers!

[Fenwoodian]

^{.
I've been a Zeiss lens shooter for years.    Used them on my Nikon and Pentax cameras.
 
Recently I've been quite impressed with images taken with Leica R lenses that I've seen on the Internet.  Being a bokehholic I shoot most of my images these days with a wide aperture and was attracted to Leica bokeh.
 
I currently have the Leica 80 lux and the 135/2.8 version II.  I like the bokeh of each lens.  
 
I live in northern Wisconsin USA and not a good time of year to go out and take colored photos.} 

 

 

^{In a couple months I plan to do lots of shooting at a nearby botanical garden.  I will have a shootout comparing the following lenses:   Leica 80 lux, Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 Milvus, and Voigtlander 75mm f/2.5 lenses.   I'll be sure to post many of the comparative photos here for you all to see.}