Marquinius Posted August 2, 2009 Share #1 Posted August 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Switching lenses I happened to look into the camera body and was shocked to see my shutter was damaged. Something apparantly hit the top of one of the blades and made a rip in it. I will send it in for repairs monday morning and I hope to get it back before august 27th as I'm going to Scotland then. Grrrrrrrr . I'm VERY sure I didn't do it myself while cleaning the sensor, as I'm VERY careful doing that. And an accidental switching off during sensor cleaning would not go by unnoticed. Furthermore, I'm sure that the damage would be much bigger if the shutter would have closed over my Arctic dust thingy. So count that out. I'm 100% certain it was not me doing it. I have bought and used a new lens (Zeiss 28mm 2.8 Biogon T), but that could not be the problem, can it? They even sell M8's with that specific lens as a kit, here in Holland. So what could cause this kind of damage? Any thoughts? Also notice the slight rubbing mark on the other shutter blade (left top, a little greyish smudge). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/92287-m8-damaged-shutter-how-could-this-happen/?do=findComment&comment=980348'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 2, 2009 Posted August 2, 2009 Hi Marquinius, Take a look here M8 damaged shutter: how could this happen?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #2 Posted August 2, 2009 The only thing I can come up with, reading this, is that the new lens must have had a piece of metal from machining or something like that come loose and you were unlucky enough to catch it in the shutter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted August 2, 2009 Share #3 Posted August 2, 2009 ...Something apparantly hit the top of one of the blades and made a rip in it. ...I'm VERY sure I didn't do it myself while cleaning the sensor, as I'm VERY careful doing that. And an accidental switching off during sensor cleaning would not go by unnoticed. Furthermore, I'm sure that the damage would be much bigger if the shutter would have closed over my Arctic dust thingy. So count that out. I'm 100% certain it was not me doing it. ...So what could cause this kind of damage? Any thoughts? Marco, This issue has been seen here before. I think it has nothing to do with you. Shutter blades are very thin and if something goes wrong during the shutting and recocking process, they can be VERY easily damaged... especially at 1/8000" I've been having problems with the shutter in one of my cameras since April. After a few trips to Solms, they have repalced the camera. I hope they will repair it quickly... but it's summer and they're running business with less people than usual. Good luck Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted August 2, 2009 The only thing I can come up with, reading this, is that the new lens must have had a piece of metal from machining or something like that come loose and you were unlucky enough to catch it in the shutter. Pffff, now that would really be horrible. A brand new lens from Zeiss with tooling residu. But it was the first thing I checked: No marks on the lens, non at all. So .. well, you never know. Thanks for your kind offer through private mail, though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted August 2, 2009 ArtZ, I'll keep that in mind when I go to the Leica tech shop here in Holland (Camtech). I read something about that earlier. And indeed I shot a couple of shots at 1/8000 last week: lots of light and still wanting an open lens. Hmm, perhaps a good reason to switch to the upgraded shutter (but losing 1/8000 on the way). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted August 2, 2009 Share #6 Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry to hear about your shutter damage, and I hope that it can be repaired promptly for you. However, I don't quite understand how using 1/8000 can be involved. The shutter blades move at the same speed no matter what setting is chosen. The only difference is the timing between the first and the second curtains. Also, as the damage is at the top edge of the blade, and a mark is on another blade too, might I suggest that whatever occurred, it was during a shutter cocking phase, and not during the release? Edited August 2, 2009 by Nicoleica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted August 2, 2009 Share #7 Posted August 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not entirely true, Nicole. You're correct that the exposure is controlled by varying the delay between the release of the first and second curtains and the highest speed is determined by the narrowest slit which can be maintained evenly across the whole of the frame. By relaxing the requirement to 1/4000 second in the upgraded shutter, they can reduce the speed of the shutter curtains with the same narrowest slit; reducing the speed by half reduces the kinetic energy by 3/4 and the spring force too. That makes for a quieter shutter and reduced foces acting on it and I expect also increased life. The shutter curtains are very thin; it looks like a piece of debris has got caught in one here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 2, 2009 Share #8 Posted August 2, 2009 Bummer. Strange that it didn't disintegrate altogether with this damage. (At least I am assuming that it still worked until you found this?) I guess it had taken quite a few shots but still this should not happen just from some dust. Maybe a grain of sand? Also weird that it is bent forward. What is there to hit? Or did it catch on the shutter mechanism itself (i.e. when receding into the body)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted August 2, 2009 Share #9 Posted August 2, 2009 Thanks Mark, I did actually mean that the set shutter speed does not affect the actual blade speed for a given shutter. One can see that the M8.2 shutter blades move at a slower speed, as the flash sync speed (The fastest shutter speed where the shutter curtains are entirely open across the entire film/sensor area.) is lower. My point was that using 1/8000 should have no bearing upon shutter performance, or be more 'risky' than using any other shutter speed on the standard M8 shutter, as the only variable is the second curtain release timing. (Slit width.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share #10 Posted August 2, 2009 To all, thanks for all the thoughts. What made me wonder, was the way the material is ripped and bent outward. I'll talk to these repair guys and see what they think. Now on to check for the warranty and for my insurance (thank God I have a special "valuables insurance", that covers things like this ... I hope). I'll keep u posted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted August 2, 2009 Share #11 Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) Hi Marco, Sorry for your problem of shutter. One question: the "shock" appeared after you put your new Biogon and after your 1/8000s test or it exists before? I have measured my coded Cron 28mm in the back on the basis of the baionnette crown : it is 1 cm exactly. What is fact to use a quick speed it can create this damage? otherwise it seems to be a rather "violent" shock with something hard ! It is very curious I hope that your insurance takes care of this repairing Which is the opinion of Mark Norton which know well the anatomy of M8 Regards Henry Edited August 2, 2009 by Doc Henry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HetDraakje Posted August 2, 2009 Share #12 Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) Marco, sad to hear of your problem. There were 2 threads in the beginning of the M8 both similar to your problem: shutter blade fracture, and shutter damage I noticed the same problem after bouncing my M8 on a concrete tiled floor. As I planned to have the shutter upgrade, I directly send in my camera. About the Biogon, it doesn't stick in that deem into the box, does it? It shouldn't have any effect on the shutter, although the shutter does travel at great speed by the end of the lens. I hope that your camera can be fixed under warranty, as this kind of problem should not happen to any camera, especially to a Leica (customer warranty in the Netherlands is to be partially extended and provided by the seller, if a expected lifespan is longer than the usual 1 year, e.g. a washing machine is supposed to last > 6 years). Boen Edited August 2, 2009 by HetDraakje Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted August 2, 2009 Share #13 Posted August 2, 2009 Marco, you did clean the sensor if I understand, did you? Did you adopt an air blower or rocket blower or something like that to clean it? In the case you were cleaning and you were switching off your camera while still some air pressure was there, that I'm sure it was more than enough to break the blade. Tolerances are tight, so even a small pressure given by the air may cause this kind of accident when the blades are moving. Obviously that's just my opinion, and I hope you get your camera back in time! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #14 Posted August 2, 2009 An understandable thought, Maurizio, but physically impossible. It must have been a thing like a grain of sand or other small piece of material between the shutter blades. That would also explain the bending outwards. Just to be clear, this is not a Leica shutter, but a Copal shutter, like nearly every other camera out the, irrespective of brand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted August 2, 2009 Share #15 Posted August 2, 2009 An understandable thought, Maurizio, but physically impossible. It must have been a thing like a grain of sand or other small piece of material between the shutter blades. That would also explain the bending outwards. Just to be clear, this is not a Leica shutter, but a Copal shutter, like nearly every other camera out the, irrespective of brand. Hi Jaap, What is the difference ? about the quality ? Regards Henry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted August 2, 2009 Share #16 Posted August 2, 2009 The first thread is the one I was thinking of. It looks really exactly the same thing. Wierd... Just compare both pictures: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/92287-m8-damaged-shutter-how-could-this-happen/?do=findComment&comment=980588'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #17 Posted August 2, 2009 Hi Jaap,What is the difference ? about the quality ? Regards Henry The quality of most shutters is exactly the same, I would like to point out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #18 Posted August 2, 2009 The first thread is the one I was thinking of. It looks really exactly the same thing. Wierd... Just compare both pictures: Good to find it, I had it in my mind's eye as well. It really looks like hitting something small at speed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted August 2, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) @Henry: Thanks for the support! And no, I don't think it's the Biogon. The damage would be extensive when the shutter hits the back of the lens. This looks more like hitting a small spot in the camera ... @Boen: clear thinking, good tip! @Maurizio: no, I didn't do anything that could have caused this. I spoke about the cleaning just so people would realise that wasn't the cause. In fact I cleaned the sensor a couple of weeks ago and then all was fine. @ArtZ and Jaap: that is really something! Exactly the same damage. I'm going to print it and take it with me to Leica. This should NOT be possible in a € 4,000 camera. I'm still smiling. Check my fun ride at "people" and you can see for yourself. Edited August 2, 2009 by Marquinius Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 2, 2009 Share #20 Posted August 2, 2009 This should NOT be possible in a € 4,000 camera. Hmmm- a crash through a bird strike should not be possible with a 40.000.000,-- Euro airplane... I'm convinced it is mechanical damage of a kind. That second one was a brand new camera. It must have been some piece of whatever sticking to the shutter somewhere. Don't forget these blades are very fragile and move fast, it looks like that kind of collision. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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