M9: Does Phase One Know Something?

[M'Ate]

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Think he's a dedicated 'cream stirrer', but could be wrong on that.

[jrc]

Perhaps Leica plans to do what it did with the S2 with its long announce-to-release period...Leica might announce this fall that it intends to release the camera for Photokina 2010. That would have the benefit of freezing customers who might drift away to a compact DSLR, and at the same time, provide some satisfaction for those of us waiting for an M9. At least we'd have a timeline.

 

As for not being ready...I think it could be close. If there are fundamental research problems as yet unsolved, then it's unlikely that they could accurately predict when a solution will be available; and if they haven't demonstrated to themselves the viability of a FF sensor (both in concept and in manufacturing processes) then it's unlikely they'd make any announcement, or that these rumors would be so rife. But if they *have* demonstrated its viability, then it's mostly a matter of turning the crank and popping out the sensors. The sensors are the heart of the matter -- most of the other possible improvements already exist in some form or another, and it's just a matter of writing the specs and engineering the package.

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[Guest stnami]

Be carefull Mr Scary.......... your threads get moved, maybe even your posts will be moved

[SJP]

Aaargh!!! Gimme the M11 now!!!!

 

What does it do by the way?

[offshore]

Why assume the M9 is FF. Perhaps it's a new APS-H sensor at 15-18 MP (I think 13-15 MP is more realistic) that has been designed with a full on IR filter, tweaked processor to compensate and better high ISO capability. Some other goodies like external ISO dial and adding C1, C2 and C3 to the SS dial would also be cool.

[sdai]

Why assume the M9 is FF. Perhaps it's a new APS-H sensor at 15-18 MP (I think 13-15 MP is more realistic) that has been designed with a full on IR filter, tweaked processor to compensate and better high ISO capability. Some other goodies like external ISO dial and adding C1, C2 and C3 to the SS dial would also be cool.

 

That's my guess too ... frankly, Dr. Kaufmann has just said that anyone desperately waiting for a FF M are victims falling for a market trick in LFI 01/2009. Eating those words in 8 months would be too quick.

 

A 1.3x M9 slightly more expensive than the 8.2 seems to be more reasonable.

[microview]

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Well, what do you know? There is a file called "Leica M9-Generic.icm"

 

Well, not in the Mac OSX version 4.8.2 there isn't.... ICC Leica profiles are for M8 R8 R9 Digilux and D-Lux. No M9 nor on the Phase One web page:eek::eek:.

[Jamie Roberts]

But there definitely *is* a Leica M9 Generic profile in the latest C1 for Windows release. I'd say the cat's out of the bag

[spylaw4]

That's my guess too ... frankly, Dr. Kaufmann has just said that anyone desperately waiting for a FF M are victims falling for a market trick in LFI 01/2009. Eating those words in 8 months would be too quick.

 

A 1.3x M9 slightly more expensive than the 8.2 seems to be more reasonable.

 

Dr K also said in the same response "..... and, ultimately, if a full-format sensor is what the market wants, then that's what the market will get. Eventually."

[jaapv]

Why assume the M9 is FF. Perhaps it's a new APS-H sensor at 15-18 MP (I think 13-15 MP is more realistic) that has been designed with a full on IR filter, tweaked processor to compensate and better high ISO capability. Some other goodies like external ISO dial and adding C1, C2 and C3 to the SS dial would also be cool.

Stefan Daniel implied that such a camera would be called the M8.3.{" be it M9 or M8.3" )

[lars_bergquist]

Leica (i.e. Herr Kaufmann) could afford to announce the S2 a full year before availability. There is no S1 -- well, not THAT kind of S1 -- whose sales could be knifed in the back by the announcement. The S2 is all new, not a continuation of an established line.

 

But there IS a M8.2. It is selling well. Does Herr Kaufmann really want to freeze Leica sales for a full year while potential buyers go all anal-retentive waiting for the new Wunderkamera?

 

Ergo, in the M market, an announcement will have to be followed promptly by a release. How long after the announcement did we have to wait for the M8.2? Simple business economics, a matter I suspect Herr Kaufmann knows one or two things about. And could a working pre-production full frame, IR-safe M9 already exist, physically? Stated that way, I think more people than I would profess deep scepticism.

 

The old man from the Age of the M3

[wlaidlaw]

A higher megapixel but quieter 1.3x sensor camera would suit me just fine. 21mm EFOV is as wide as I really want to go and I have got that with my WATE. I prefer the way that my 35 ASPH Summilux draws to the 50 ASPH Summilux, so for me, a full frame would be a positive disadvantage for a "standard" fast lens. I also really like the EFOV range you get on a 1.3 camera with the 28-35-50 Tri-Elmar.

 

The higher pixels would be really nice for those occasions that you want to crop and if they could combine it with 2500 or more ISO, that is usable for colour with lower chrominance noise, that would make my day. I would hope Leica might finally take notice of the hundreds of hints and put ISO and EV on the back arrows, perhaps combined with a button push (the seldom used protect button).

 

Finally, I would not want a camera any bigger than the current M8. When I put all my Leica's side by side, Model II, IIF, M4 and M8, the M8 is nearly double the size of the model II. If this continues we will end up with a rangefinder the size of the Combat Graphic and need a truck to carry it around.

 

Wilson

[colin_lam]

I really think it will be a "show of concept" of the upcoming M9, if and only if, a full frame sensor is incorporated with. With the development and production of the S2 I do not Leica would have enough resources and capacity left to produce another new camera.

 

just my 2 cents.

[andybarton]

I would expect that they will have opened up a second line for the S2, and that people who currently make the M8.2, will be making the M9 (if indeed it is coming).

 

Provided that they have sufficent skilled workers in Portugal (what happened to the R production people, for instance?), then they can make both products at the same time.

[jaapv]

The Internet myth is that the register distance problem with the incidence angle is the sole reason for the 1.3 crop of the M8. It is not. It is one of the reasons in a whole complex that led to that design decision.

 

The main reason is very simple: The M8, of necessity, had to be built out of discrete electronic parts. That means it has limited processing power and heat dissipation problems. The amount of data from a full format sensor with the attendant extra calculations would have taxed the processing to - or beyond- the limit making the camera exceedingly slow. For this very reason Leica had to drop the original plan to make it a full 16 bits camera, forcing them to devise a very intelligent compression algorithm.

 

A full format sensor would have driven the cost of the camera at least 1500 Euro higher too, which for obvious reasons would not have been a good idea.

 

Getting a microlens configuration that works is just a matter of improved engineering precision, which seems to have been achieved now.

 

The situation at the current time is completely different. By a briliant stroke of Dr. Kaufmann in securing the cooperation of Fujitsy the Maestro chip has been created, solving the processing problems once and for all. The new M9 sensor is just a smaller S2 sensor, which gives total synergy in the R&D for both cameras.

That, and the falling sensor price, has brought the camera to be be possible.

 

The only thing that I find amazing is that Leica seems to have found a way around the IR problem.

How is of course total speculation, but there is for instance nanotechnology, and who knows what else.

 

Apart from that I doubt that there would be very much development work neccessary for the M9 as such. Body and viewfinder are basically routine, the shutter would be simliar to the M8.2, the electronic part a scaled down S2.

 

Production would be on a totally different line as the S2, so there would not be a conflict of resources, or very limited.

 

But in the end , we are still talking rumours, albeit very strong ones with strong corroberation. (Chasseur d'Images, the dealer network and now Phase One)

[exile]

I think it's just an announcement of serious intent. They may even include a working specification. But like others here, I'd be very suprised if the M9 were available for supervised fondling before Photokina 2010. I would expect shipping by early next summer.

 

As for the specification? An increase in pixel count and high ISO performance is a given - otherwise what's the point?

 

The discounted Japanese upgrade offer is interesting. Sounds like a last chance to "upgrade" some M8 spec's to M8.2. Very interesting.

[delander †]

But there definitely *is* a Leica M9 Generic profile in the latest C1 for Windows release. I'd say the cat's out of the bag

 

How does Phaseone produce a profile. Do they need a camera or just a sensor or what?

 

Jeff

[delander †]

Dont you think that a relase of the M9 in September is going to take a little steam out of the S2 release. I know that they are intended for somewhat different markets but there may be those already with MF gear who may have gone to the S2 but will now think, hey lets just see what the M9 will do in terms of IQ and hold back on an S2 purchase?

 

Jeff

[isaac]

Hello Jamie!

But there definitely *is* a Leica M9 Generic profile in the latest C1 for Windows release. I'd say the cat's out of the bag

The numeric content of the M9 ICM-file is identical to the M8 ICM-file.

So, no bag and therefore also no cat :-)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Shootist]

I just looked in the Film Curves folder, it is a sub-folder in the main C1 program folder, and there are four Leica M9 entries. Extra Shadow, High Contrast, Standard & Linear Response.

 

But But But the funny thing is there is NO S2 entry in either the Color Profiles folders or the Film Curves folder.

Could be the M9 entries are really for the S2 and will be named differently, Leica S2, with a new C1 release and the S2 hits the market.

 

Leica just isn't that good at keeping secrets for them to have a working prototype and for PO to have a camera to work up profiles for.