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eckart

What about a BW-M8?

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In the German department of the LUF, we talked about the idea of a digital M just having a BW sensor built in.

So it could have nearly double the solution of a colour sensor by having the same size of sensor and of the pixel, so sharpness and clearness would be exampleless

The contrast and tonal range you could manage with yellow. orange, red or green filters, like we do or did with film, which is more effectiv than the post work in PS with a colour picture.

With this M-Leica it would be possible to make the highest quality BW pictures of all digital cameras by showing the strength of the M lenses really.

So much M-users use their Leicas just with a BW film, I think more that with any other type of camera, so I think, there would be enough costumers buying a BW-M-digital, including me.

Edited by eckart

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All cameras shoot in color, even Henry Talbot and Julia Margaret Cameron's.

 

A color image always falls on B&W film. The film ignores the colors.

 

Learn channel-mixing in Photoshop, and your M8 become a B&W digital camera.

 

Too bad you were not here in Westminster, MD, USA two weeks ago, I taught a digital B&W photo workshop at our local college. Was open to all.

 

Listing near the bottom of the web page: http://www.commongroundonthehill.org/art.html

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yes it would work

removing the bayer layer would save 2/3 stop in light, higher sensitivity lower noise

wouldnt need an AA filter, but then it begins without one

trouble is, removing the bayer layers blows away the microlenses too

that means it needs a new sensor

 

in builds less than 10,000, thats going to be awfully expensive

financially not that viable unfortunately

 

maybe with a DMR

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I see no reason why this could not be a firmware option in the menu just keep the luminosity & drop the chroma information altogether. Caveat would be if the DNG standard supports monochrome - I guess it does but it might be "non-standard".

 

Edit: ah, oops. Sorry, I gather you want a hardware B&W (monochrome) sensor. That is a different matter, but I would be surprised if Kodak does not us the same basic sensor to make a range of color and monochrome products (1 vs. 3 chip camera etc.).

Edited by SJP

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Learn channel-mixing in Photoshop, and your M8 become a B&W digital camera.

Don't be afraid, Walt, I love my M8 and I know how to use the channel mixer, but thank you.

No, the thing I mean is a monochrome sensor in a additional camera, like my BW loaded M6, but digital.

The normal M8 sensor uses theoreticly just a third of his pixelcapacity for the picture and the rest to create the colours, this is a major difference in solution and clearity, isn't it?

Another benefit could be, the missing of the RGB filters in the sensor could allow to bring the pixels closer to the surface, this would help a lot if you want to use a full frame sensor;)

Edited by eckart

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If the B&W M8 sensor saw only Luminance and no color, would traditional B&W filters work?

 

Glad you know how to use the channel mixer. I wasn't afraid.

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Yes, coloured filters work also with b&w sensors. As already said, the light comes in full colour, and by promoting one of them, you changes the light balance in the whole. B&w film didn't read colours either, remember?

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Actually there is a prototype for a full b&w camera made by Kodak on a Nikon body. Is Kodak DCS 760m. Rather on M8, I think d-lux4 b&w edition will be a better candidate. The price and compact aspect of d-lux4 will make it a better candidate. A better ISO performance and sharp for d-lux4 in trade of colors is the best think for that little camera. Unfortunately, without color I cannot realize how to reproduce a dynamic b&w style ?! Maybe Leica know, hear us and prepare a d-lux4 exclusive b&w edition. For sure I'll buy that.

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Yes, coloured filters work also with b&w sensors. As already said, the light comes in full colour, and by promoting one of them, you changes the light balance in the whole. B&w film didn't read colours either, remember?

 

Good point. I was attempting to think in LAB color, and could remember if the 'L' channel would see the change in the light spectrum, or if the camera still needed to have the A & B channels.

 

Just trying to throw out questions so I can better understand why one needs a dedicated B&W sensor.

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An attractive idea first it seems; however, a pure B&W sensor has to come with permanent sensitivity levels for different wavelengths of light, am I wrong? With film cameras we have the liberty of choosing different film types with different wavelength responses. To me, a pre-fixed B&W sensor sounds like a crippled tool?

 

Moreover, if we are gaining 2/3rd of a stop from the removal of bayer filter, aren't we losing nearly as much from the use of B&W filters (i.e., yellow, orange, red, etc.)?

 

K.

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...Rather on M8, I think d-lux4 b&w edition will be a better candidate. The price and compact aspect of d-lux4 will make it a better candidate. A better ISO performance and sharp for d-lux4 in trade of colors is the best think for that little camera...

 

What makes me believe in a BW-M8 or how ever called digital M-BW, is the quality of the available lenses, which are very useful when you think on the higher solution.

I think this would be more for the FineArt-section than for the pocket-cams.

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Thanks for moving this tread to here.

-

to koray

If you put on a filter like yellow, orange or red, it would be much more than 2/3 f-stops, it depends on, but it's for yellow around 1 f-stop, for orange at least 2 and even more for red.

That would be exactly as before by using film, but if you read the experiences of photographer in the link of post # 8 from regedit, you know what I am talking about.

This camera from 2001 has had, from today's point of view, a ridiculous resolution of 6 MP and brought some of the nikon lenses to or over their borders.

He writes there, that the pictures he did with that are better he ever did, 35mm or middle format.

If you imagine now a today's monochrome sensor with lets say 14 to 20 MP the results would just be outstanding.

Edited by eckart

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i would love a b&w M lens compatible camera. The best looking photos ive ever taken are still those i did years ago on my Contax G2 which only ever had b&w film in it before i moved to digital - and ive been trying to create that same look and feel ever since! I must say that the colour photos from the M8 that i convert to b&w are the closest ive seen to what my G2 produced - so a b&w sensor would be wonderful.

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An attractive idea first it seems; however, a pure B&W sensor has to come with permanent sensitivity levels for different wavelengths of light, am I wrong? With film cameras we have the liberty of choosing different film types with different wavelength responses. To me, a pre-fixed B&W sensor sounds like a crippled tool?

K.

 

I guess this might be tweaked in software, it sounds like that anyway. If it isn't possible, it would definitely be a problem. Who would like to have a b&w digital camera with preset "film features". On the other side, isn't this what we get with colour digital cameras? And we have learnt to make the tweaks that are neccesary to get end results like you got with Kodachome and so on...

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It's a fascinating idea, and to be true, is not the first time it emerges spontaneously in the forum (I seem to remember, 2 years ago or a bit more...) ; fascinating... but Riley has said it right :

 

" financially not that viable unfortunately "

 

Already, M8 has a limited market ... how many of us would buy a costly body which should be a "strictly rigid" bw camera ? 1000 ? 5000 ? Take note, apart the usual RF/VF, shutter and body castings it would need a completely dedicated electronics to give the IQ users would pretend... Leica will not do it, period; a Pana Dlux with its small sensor should be a "neither meat nor fish"; Nikon maybe could afford the risk...

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I was asked my thoughts on a B/W only digital M over 3 years ago so I have a strong feeling that Leica had seriously considered this before releasing M8.

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I'd buy one tomorrow - provided it didn't cost any more than an M8.2.

 

(Note to Walt, I also understand how to use the channel mixer but that doesn't help me regain the resolution lost by the Bayer filter.)

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...that Leica had seriously considered this before releasing M8.

Yes, that might be, an instead of the normal M8 7 M8.2 camera wouldn't have been a good idea, I agree totally.

But now there is a colour version, which has been sold not so bad and I don't think there is so much development necessary to have the best BW camera of the world, as an additional camera.

I wouldn't mind to use separate bodies, like in film times, one for colour and one for BW, if that gives me the highest quality.

If you think this would be a cropped tool, than a every lens but a zoom is a cropped tool as well, right?

Edited by eckart

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I wonder if a black and white edition would sell as good as the white edition?

 

Seriously while it sounds great, I suspect there would be very few purchasers who want to limit themselves to black and white. I would buy it but suspect that Im one of the few exceptions.

 

Even with two cameras loaded for color and bw, you have the option to shoot color in the body should you choose.

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I really am excited for idea of bw digital m .. I even wrote about it before..

 

it is a lot to improve mono.. add much DR as possible.. that is weakness of digital. Fullframe is easier to set because simpler corrections

it must be cheaper than colored fullframe.. but I think black version will come much later.. maybe 10 years later if not 5 years less.. we use 1.5 and 1.33 cropped sensors and there is enough for even a3 size so full frame sensors even from 1st generation can last quite long from usability's view..

 

mono m digital can have very little OLED view and still have same thickness as old film M cameras... it would be awesone.. I really dont need of wheel.. rather phase back or sinar view layout.. iphone voila lol

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