glenerrolrd Posted July 28, 2009 Share #141 Posted July 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) JRC Your logic is fine and you did a good job of supporting your argument. What is disappointing is that there should be far more "common ground" in this discussion. How can anyone refute the need for Leica to sustain a successful business operation(which implies having products that are "commercial successes")? You pose an excellent question....Can Leica sustain itself by focusing on the "evolution of the M", an "ill timed" entry into MF and rebadged P&S. Or should they consider either an entry level M (made elsewhere) and incorporating additional consumer friendly features or a new professional design (similar to the logic they used with the S2..a modern design ..world beater....the best). It would have be a lot better(IMHO) if the discussion was focused on "buyer values"and ideas that could position Leica for success. Rather than on confusing "good photographers" with those having commercial acumen. One that might be worth debating.......how many really good photographers would make good customers? No real answer but its worth differentiating between a good photographer and a good consumer. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Hi glenerrolrd, Take a look here Let's have it out. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #142 Posted July 28, 2009 When I think of my friend's DSLR and my film and digital Leicas, this is the comparison that comes to mind: [ATTACH]154137[/ATTACH] vs. [ATTACH]154138[/ATTACH] If your watch has to have an altimeter AND a barometer, there's only one choice. Both are more or less viable businesses. In the 60's and 70's the Swiss watch industry was said to be doomed because of the advent of quartz watches. 30 years and millions of worthless plastic throwaway watches later, quality mechanical watches are doing fine. They're not necessarily just jewellery either. Like the Omega Speedmaster above, which, straight out of the box from the local store, helped folks get to the moon - more than I can say for the other one - they can be long-lasting professional tools. The market for cheap and functionally bursting gadgets is there, no doubt, but so is the market for useable, even if reduced, functionality, as long as the other qualities (in Leica's case: ability to use old lenses, generally top quality lenses, rangefinder concept, simplicity, tradition) are valued and appreciated. The question of whether a company can finance its "prestige" product by hacking out "volume" products and exploiting every available marketing opportunity has been answered to some extent in the affirmative by Porsche, a company I have a little contact with. On the other hand, as I believe the current Porsche crisis shows: being too smart and money-oriented can sometimes backfire. Porsche ended up being more an investment manager than a car maker. And, as so often happens with gamblers, the last gamble they made lost them more money than all their previous intelligent decisions had made them. And, in my opinion, their cynical marketing culture has taken them far away from their more sincere engineering tradition and lost them some respect among sports car lovers. It's a legitimate and debatable question, and maybe it does take a cynical volume product to make a great niche product possible. But even then, I wouldn't want to mix the two. Let the other guy buy the volume stuff, I'll take the M. I can't say what it takes for Leica to survive and thrive, but I am very grateful that the company appears to have owners who respect and maintain their M-camera tradition without trying to build in an altimeter and a barometer and give it a new shock-resistant ergonomically efficient rubber case. Just my $0.02 Best, Guru You make some very valid points and it sure would be a pity if the clean lines of a Leica M was given more buttons and auto features. I have the Rolex Yachtmaster and it gives me the date, but does not tell me the day, nor does it give me lunar info or barometer readings... > I actually only use it to tell the time. > My wife has the same watch and it is certified as a chronometer accurate to seconds per month...but she always adds 5 minutes to avoid being late (which she still is!) The point is that each of us have our own style of doing things and long may this last In the case of the Leica it seems to me that the new user expects a camera at this price to have many electronic features that the M does not have today. The more worthwhile features demanded by new clients could and should I believe be added . However, hopefully these can be implemented in a way that does NOT distract and is sympathetic towards the clean lines of the classic "M" heritage. If the demand for more electronics on Leica cameras is not met then I guess achieving sales growth which will need to be driven by new users will be far from obvious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #143 Posted July 28, 2009 The ISO is now part of the primary process, no different that setting exposure and shutter speed -- it's simply a third adjustable dimension, not really possible with film, that can be very useful. It's not an elaboration of film possibilities, so much as film cameras are somewhat crippled in terms of ISO, since the film fixed the ISO. Jono Slack: Nice to hear from you. You are right: both the jewelry and the shooting aspects are pleasant, and it's nice to hear somebody say so. I personally drive a Mercedes CLS and a Lexus hybrid SUV, as well as shoot an M7 and an M8, and I'm fully aware of the jewelry aspects of these things, and enjoy them. What has bothered me in the past is the wide denial on this forum of any such aspect to Leicas -- that is, the claim that they are simply chosen because they are the most functional camera, which I think is nonsense. In any case, I've argued that Leica needs to keep people who see the M series as jewelry, but those people are not ultimately enough (which is why Hermes, which specializes in selling jewelry, got out.) I think Leica needs to broaden its appeal; and that a second Leica, or even a non-Leica, that was optimized for M lenses, with a fully modern computerized body, would help sell M lenses and that would support everybody with an Mx habit. I'd suggest to you, though, that the problem with the S2 won't be function as much as markets. A number of MF companies already seem to be on the edge, or going under, and adding another MF camera, and a very expensive one, under current market conditions, seems to me to be risky, to say the least. I've used the word "doomed" and I'll stick to it. I freely admit I may be wrong. There may be enough high end amateurs who will buy the camera (and I have to say it -- largely for the jewelry aspect) to support it, but frankly, I don't think Leica's reputation as a builder of high-end digital cameras, nor its reputation for technical support, will attract many professionals. Again, before anybody pisses on my parade again, I admit I could very well be wrong. I also admit that there are expert camera users who really need an S2; but I think those people are few. I find it passing strange that Leica had one market essentially locked up (the compact, high-end, high IQ street-shooting market) and did not work to broaden it. If they'd put the R&D that they put into the S2, into a new M, maybe one would already be out. But it's not, and I promise you, a lot of serious M users are looking with great interest at the Oly E-P1 and the Panasonic G1. Some of them have posted in this thread. If you have a 90mm Lux or a 135 amongst your M glass, borrow an E-P1 with an adapter for a bit, and try it. It'll be a revelation. There have been rumors monged on this very forum that Leica may have an M announcement in September. I certainly hope so, because I desperately want the company to survive, and a new M might also help move more M glass even before the camera is released. Again, nice to see you here. JC Spot on ...I agree with you and I also want Leica to survive. Your recognition of market realities, possibly missed opportunities and the S2 make a lot of sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #144 Posted July 28, 2009 [stefan Daniel] told me after the event when I phoned him the same thing and he indicated that the Leica mid price camera (M or whatever) did need a Macro and Telephoto capability and that this was very much in their thoughts and planning. Now now Frank - what did I tell you about this habit of making stuff up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #145 Posted July 28, 2009 If the demand for more electronics on Leica cameras is not met... For the third time I'll post a link to the only poll I know of regarding this amazing demand for "more electronics" on a Leica M camera: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73239 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 28, 2009 Share #146 Posted July 28, 2009 Jeff - despite not having used a film camera, I know, as I shot this still life (bit rough - I'll reshoot a better version sometime)! Flickr Photo Download: The Photojournalist No idea whether it works - bought it for £20 'cos it had a nice patina... perhaps I ought to put some film in it and investigate what people see in ye olde filme... That is it. I had a black one for 30 years until it was stolen. It is a simple camera so straightforward to use which is why I would like a digital version. You never know when they reach the point that they simply cant add anything more to a digital camera they might go back to basics with a niche product. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #147 Posted July 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I disagree. The collective product philosophy in Solms regarding the M series, of which Mr. Daniel is the spokesman, is that this is a rangefinder camera with an optical viewfinder. No mention or suggestion has ever been made, (outside some of the wilder threads in this forum) of:1. Autofocus 2. EVF 3. Extra complications our automation. Quite on the contrary, I have been told that Leica recognizes that the current rangefinder can only just handle the required accuracy on the M8, but they are satisfied with the level currenly obtained Tests (!) on full-frame M cameras have proved that the accuracy is ample for a larger sensor, which is less demanding in that respect. The M9 will unequivocally have an opto/mechanical rangefinder-viewfinder system. Jaapv if you are correct and autofocus, EVF and automation are WILD IDEAS, (although please note that EVF was mentioned by Stefan as a future technology they plan to embrace) .....then does this mean: > Leica management expects it revenue to be drived as follows : >>>>> M9 plus its lenses >>>>>>S2 >>>>>>Sports optics >>>>>>Badged Panasonic product ...and this will deliver the required 250M€ annually? (against a backdrop of 150M€uros in 2008 when they also had some R9 sales I guess, and a 50% drop vis a vis the previous year.) > Is the S2 really going to deliver the sales volume, at a point when prices are dropping in that market, and the Phase One deal seems over for now at least. > Is the M9 likely to attract a high number of NEW users against Nikon and Canon competition? They need another vehicle for the revenue stream I guess and a M product with a wider market appeal.....maybe the EVF offers that new product. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #148 Posted July 28, 2009 I'm beginning to think that Frank is a figment of my imagination, and that I ate something bad yesterday that's disagreeing with me in my sleep... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #149 Posted July 28, 2009 For the third time I'll post a link to the only poll I know of regarding this amazing demand for "more electronics" on a Leica M camera: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73239 > I have read the thread and I personally would follow the same votes as listed. (eg I do not want AF particularly and if I had it I would want to be able to switch it off easily eg I do not need to store exposure reading....just go manual) > However I am a user of M equipment for over 30 years, and have become used to the M film cameras. I am now adapting to M8 and am excited by the transition. Leicas challenge is to attract NEW LEICA USERS TO BUY LEICA KIT.....from all I hear new users tend to go to Canon or Nikon, and see Leica M8 as old fashioned, which is a challenge for Leica dealers I am told. Innovations like Safari or white Leicas, or customise your Leica are fine, as is the S2 but.....will it drive the needed increas in sales for Leica. If not at some point my Leica M kit will drop in value and I shall not get new lenses too easily...There was a real danger of that happening when Hermes had their banking issues and fortunately Dr Kaufmann stepped in to save the business.....How many chances does a company get? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #150 Posted July 28, 2009 For the third time I'll post a link to the only poll I know of regarding this amazing demand for "more electronics" on a Leica M camera: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73239 Of course there is a strong demand, Mani. I know six forum members who have these demands. But boy, are they strong... (or, at least, loud...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #151 Posted July 28, 2009 I'm beginning to think that Frank is a figment of my imagination, and that I ate something bad yesterday that's disagreeing with me in my sleep... I am sure that you are trying to be constructive but could you explain please what you mean by this as I do not understand. Actually I think you are trying to be personal and insulting and I thought that was not allowed in the forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #152 Posted July 28, 2009 Of course there is a strong demand, Mani. I know six forum members who have these demands. But boy, are they strong... (or, at least, loud...) Jaapv I am if you mean me NOT in favour of adding lots of fancy gimmicky features to my M8....I maybe loud however. I am however of a strong opinion that we special people in this Leica Forum are already Leica fans, and there are a few new comers that have ditched their Canon's etc and gone Leica for reasons of speed of use, or discrete nature of a Leica M. The problem is that the majority of new camera buyers will NOT buy Leica due to lack of features, perceived difficulty to use, and price, Surely Leica see that and recognise the need to address Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #153 Posted July 28, 2009 I am sure that you are trying to be constructive but could you explain please what you mean by this as I do not understand. Actually I think you are trying to be personal and insulting and I thought that was not allowed in the forum. No I'm sorry Frank - I wasn't trying to be constructive, at all. I was trying to be sarcastic and attempting rather feeble humor at your expense. Let me walk you through how this disgraceful situation arose: you spout a lot of figures and 'inside knowledge' and discussions on the phone with Stefan Daniel where he tells you his plans for the M10, and so on. But there's very little - how shall I put this? - "factual" stuff to back it all up. That's how I got to the sarcastic stage. But now I think I'm done with this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 28, 2009 Share #154 Posted July 28, 2009 Leicas challenge is to attract NEW LEICA USERS TO BUY LEICA KIT.....from all I hear new users tend to go to Canon or Nikon, and see Leica M8 as old fashioned, which is a challenge for Leica dealers I am told. The M8 has attracted a lot of new users, as is evidenced on these pages (bear in mind most people have better things to do than interact with Internet Forums ) and in conversations with dealers. Most M8 users will be existing M users "trading up/down/sideways", but there is a significant proportion who are new to the marque. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #155 Posted July 28, 2009 Jaapv I am if you mean me NOT in favour of adding lots of fancy gimmicky features to my M8....I maybe loud however. I am however of a strong opinion that we special people in this Leica Forum are already Leica fans, and there are a few new comers that have ditched their Canon's etc and gone Leica for reasons of speed of use, or discrete nature of a Leica M. The problem is that the majority of new camera buyers will NOT buy Leica due to lack of features, perceived difficulty to use, and price, Surely Leica see that and recognise the need to address Well, as that has been the situation since the Exa was introduced, I guess Leica has learnt to live with it over many decades, in fact they are the only rangefinder company that has learnt to live with it, as all others have either succumbed or have turned into brand names for large Japanese companies... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #156 Posted July 28, 2009 The M8 has attracted a lot of new users, as is evidenced on these pages (bear in mind most people have better things to do than interact with Internet Forums ) and in conversations with dealers. Most M8 users will be existing M users "trading up/down/sideways", but there is a significant proportion who are new to the marque. Andy I just do not see what you are saying by reading the forum pages....Yes one or two have come back to Leica that used M film cameras years ago and there was one person recently who tossed his Rolleiflex for a M8.2 ...but these are far and few between. My daughter and son bought Canon, and Nikon as have all of their friends, and all of my friends. Dealers tell me how hard they need to work to convince prospective buyers who are not knowledeable about Leica other than it is an up market brand with an up market price. Magazines such as Robb Report refer to it as a highly expensive camera etc and do not go on about its differentiators. The fact is since Leica do not even use their two free UVIR filter to force a detailed questionnaire to be filled out they do not know either. I have never seen a marketing questionnaire for Leica ...but then maybe they do target Canon or Nikon users somehow? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted July 28, 2009 Share #157 Posted July 28, 2009 Of course not I'm saying that I don't recall anyone on this forum buying one at all. And if they did, they most likely keep it in it's box on a shelf Andy My dealer told me that he sold out his allotment and Leica sold the entire production run (I believe there were only 500 made). Surely these were sold to collectors who believe they will be worth much more in the future and have the dough to stash them away in a safe deposit box for about 10 years. Having said that, like many others I sold my M8's last year. Six months later I bought a good condition used one and had it upgraded with all the latest stuff. I found that (as a shooting tool) I just couldn't be without the M8's. I won't be selling this one even if I end up buying a FF M9 at some point. Woody Spedden Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 28, 2009 Share #158 Posted July 28, 2009 You guys keep this up and somebody's gonna take an M16 to ya. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 28, 2009 Share #159 Posted July 28, 2009 Andy I just do not see what you are saying by reading the forum pages.... With all due respect, Frank, you haven't been active here very long and I am sure that you haven't read all the threads (not that I have either, and I was here before this iteration of the forum started - and the one before the one before that, come to think of it...) There have been loads of "New M8 user here! How do I...?" threads from people who haven't used a Leica before. I am not saying that more new photographers choose a Leica than a Canon or a Nikon (most will choose a cheap point and shoot, I would guess), but there are ore than a few people who are new to Leica, via the M8 route. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 28, 2009 Share #160 Posted July 28, 2009 Andy My dealer told me that he sold out his allotment and Leica sold the entire production run (I believe there were only 500 made). Surely these were sold to collectors who believe they will be worth much more in the future and have the dough to stash them away in a safe deposit box for about 10 years. Having said that, like many others I sold my M8's last year. Six months later I bought a good condition used one and had it upgraded with all the latest stuff. I found that (as a shooting tool) I just couldn't be without the M8's. I won't be selling this one even if I end up buying a FF M9 at some point. Woody Spedden I am not saying that they haven't sold. I am sure they have. But to people who won't use them, other than as a "fairly rare object" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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