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Let's have it out

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I'm a primarily low-iso shooter, and much prefer the M8 sensor over the 5D's. I currently have no reason or desire to test a 5DII.

 

Until later,

 

Clyde

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It took me just 20 minutes to realize it was a "bad camera"... no need to test any further...

Sounds like a very short evaluation time to me, too short....

 

for "bad camera" i mean a camera which doesn't do the job it is supposed to...(for price range, history, reputation)

It does, all camera's by definition do what they are suposed to do, even a Holga does what it is supposed to do.

 

You can't convince an old Leica shooter , which is used to the quality of film shots pushed to 1600/3200 , that the M8 does the same... and we're talking about a 25 years older camera.

Preconceptions are not a convincing argument for careful evaluation. Also I could not find any photo's on your website that seemed to require being pushed, most were daytime. (Great pictures by the way!) With the M8 1250 ISO is usable but not brilliant, 2500 ISO is a major headache but still usable if you know what you are doing. The same applies to film. Film really is not that good at high ISO.

 

The 5mk2 does it!! It gives you the freedom you had with film...and in my opinion almost a close quality..

OK if you are happy with it congratulations, I personally do not like how the noise reduction affects the files.

 

ps No one wonders why all the old Leica addicted photographers didn't choose leica in the "digital shift"?

In fact no. Most "old Leica addicted photographers" are dead, or addicted to film or both. Moreover it is a personal choice even when not dead. If I had been using a film Leica all my life I guess I would stick to that as well.

 

Salgado,Larry Towell, Pellegrin, Majoli, Alan Harvey and so on... were shooting Leica exclusively... but none of them uses leicas anymore...

Salgado uses pentax film SLRs nowadays, Towell uses Tri-X film, Majoli uses Olympus compacts, David Alan Harvey has an M8 - no idea if he actually uses it, so what is the point ...? Buying an expensive plane does not make me a luthier and vice-versa. 97.3% is what you can or cannot see, the rest might be equipment, or not.

 

 

1) ...for price range, history, reputation..the holga is a 5 $ camera...doesn't have leica's heritage of quality...that's what i meant for "it is supposed to do"

 

2) most of my pictures were done at 1600 and underdeveloped...no grain..

i tried to do the same with the m8....it seemed a cell phone...thanks i really appreciate your compliments.

 

3) yes the 5d2 is the best out there for me... with a 35mm...not very heavy..super fast...(for film shots no one will ever beat my M6)

 

4) the people i mentioned are alive and working...and used licas all their life..

 

5) salgado uses medium format for the genesis project but still stuck with the film M...majoli 5d, pellegrin 5d,alan harvey nikons...he has aleica just because leica gave him as a present...

 

 

the point here is... that most of the photographers who used leica for many years..should have been easily pushed to use leica digitals...

if that didn't happen...it must MEAN SOMETHING!

and the meaning is that the M8 was a total flop...and none of them would use it right now...

 

leica can't fail with the M9...otherwise it will definitely die...

 

these are just my two cents by the way... and i'd like to say that my heart was beating fast when i received the M8... then... it stopped..when i turned it on.

Edited by faffo99

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Raffaele,

 

You mention that you primarily use high ISO. So, I ask whether or not you loaded the current firmware before you tested the M8? If your M8 had an early version loaded, it may not have performed as well as one with the current version.

Edited by Nicoleica
Spelling oops.

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...The 5mk2 does it!! It gives you the freedom you had with film...and in my opinion almost a close quality...

Matter of tastes i guess. I don't like the waxy look of 5D2 jpegs personally. Human skins loose their pores and lips shine like chicken grease giving portraits a plasticky touch that i've never got with my gear (including the 5D) so far. I don't like the M8 for other reasons but in good light its jpegs are miles ahead the 5D2 from this viewpoint IMHO. Never tried RAW with the 5D2 though.

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@nicoleica, yes i loaded the last firmware before testing it .. i prepared myself weeks before i received the m8... and read all the threads, tricks etc... to be as much accurate as possible..

 

@ict, can't really tell i've never shot jpegs..i always shoot RAW..

 

we all know that leica lenses produce wonderful images, and we are all in love with them...

but for my experience it didn't happen on the M8...

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Matter of tastes i guess. I don't like the waxy look of 5D2 jpegs personally. Human skins loose their pores and lips shine like chicken grease giving portraits a plasticky touch that i've never got with my gear (including the 5D) so far. I don't like the M8 for other reasons but in good light its jpegs are miles ahead the 5D2 from this viewpoint IMHO. Never tried RAW with the 5D2 though.

 

This is just about the differences between Japanese and European (not specifically German, more like Italians ...

) engineering. Japanese engineers are constantly searching for the best compromise which will please as much people as possible and European engineers go straight ahead for extreme performance under given conditions.

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Guest malland

sdai, no, on the basis of having lived in Japan and having had a lot of experience with Japanese companies I can say that your statement on the differences does not at all reflect reality. Japanese engineers focus on the same types of things engineers elsewhere do, but there is a difference in approach, like elsewhere, depending on the purpose of the engineering: whether it's for open-ended R&D, more narrowly defined R&D, or more applied engineering for product or process design.

 

There will be greater differences in management approach than in engineering approach; and there can be greater differences in the approach to product design and development between Canon and Nikon — see a recent Thom Hogan article on the Nikon product road map —than between one of these and a Western company.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Wild Beasts of Botswana

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This must be about the worst of them:

 

That's the top plate from Larry Burrows' M3...

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Salgado uses pentax film SLRs nowadays

 

Salgado is now shooting digital. Hasselblad H3.

 

Leica should send him an S2.

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sdai, no, on the basis of having lived in Japan and having had a lot of experience with Japanese companies I can say that your statement on the differences does not at all reflect reality.

 

But, this is "the" Japan in a Westerner's eyes ... I'm saying this because legally speaking I'm a Japanese (mainly because I still hold a valid Japanese passport) and can include 2 gozilla Japanese companies in my resume.

 

I was not saying that Japanese engineers can not or will not go extreme but generally speaking, extreme handling of a project/product has never been part of their corporate culture.

 

Thom Hogan probably knows a lot about Nikon cameras but I don't think he has a clue to what's going on inside Nikon.

Edited by sdai

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The M8 files are very RAW, as in very unprocessed. If you want good high ISO performance from the M8 you need to clean them up in post. Straight out of the camera they can look like crap.

 

Personally I like the fact that Leica allows the user to decide just how much detail they want to throw away.

 

Also keep in mind that the M8 sensor is a few years old. The 5D-2 is less than 6 months old.

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From a different thread we have the info that we are dealing with only a few photons per pixel (about 10 or so), that is independent of the sensor and Leica/Kodak quantum efficiency is not vastly different than anyone else's.

 

The difference is mainly in PP or 'on-chip' noise reduction.

 

Take a picture of textile, or foliage, or skin, the difference in detail/texture is phenomenal even if the noise 'looks' a lot worse with the M8 the info is still there.

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Raffaele, your last post contained a lot of information and opinion that is not relevant to my original criticism of your original comment. You stated that the M8 is a "bad camera". Now it may not suit your needs or desires and I accept that. Only you can judge that. But a bad camera it is not. Not suiting you can only be a comment on selecting the correct tool for the job. Clearly the M8 is not a tool for you. Fine. As it happens I currently use M8's professionally and very successfully. It does have some 'quirks', but so have all the other cameras I have used over the past 40+ years. I choose the M8 because it is the best tool for my work. I could have any other camera, but don't. P{rior to the relaese of the M8 I used M6's & M7's with film. I still maintain an extensive Hasselblad kit.

 

In view of my experience I can and background I can categorically state the M8 is not a bad camera. This has no bearing on it's suitability to your purposes or anyone elses's. That remains an entirely different question which I suggest you may have confused. The fact that you have chosen to prefer the Canon 5d mk11 is fine. At least you know what suits you and that is paramount.

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Guest stnami

Join Date: 01.04.2006

Location: ward017

Posts: 5,389

 

 

Re: Let's have it out

bad may mean unfavourable............

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Erl,i ll be short: i only shoot Leica...but for digital i chose Canon

 

The point is not if the camera suits my need, i m here as eveerbody because i m a pure Leica fan...

 

The point is how the camera performs.. And in my opinion it performs badly.

 

Among 35 film cameras , Leica is the top for me

among the 35 digital camers, Leica is far below other cameras.

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Raffaele, your recent explanation makes a lot more sense. That the M8 is not for you, I accept. My only disageement was that 'it is a bad camera.' I think we understand each others POV now.

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yes we did earl..

 

Unless Salgado switched since April, he is using a Canon, see my blog entry:

An Evening with Sebastião Salgado Richard Man – Photography and Calligraphy

 

And the top is Larry Burrow's Leica. Sad he dies so young.

 

// richard

 

BTW richard didn't you ask him about using Lead Bags for taking films under airport's x-ray?

i usually do so and never had problems...

 

just out of couriosity

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