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Let's have it out

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Guest BigSplash
On another thread ("Maybe this is how a future M rangefinder could work?") Alan G said, "So now there is only a small group of people who prefer rangefinders. I'm sure Leica is aware of this and the question will be if that small group will sustain the M platform indefinitely. My opinion is that it won't sustain it for much longer if the entire camera (including framing and focusing) is not upgraded. Leica isn't somehow immune from progress."

 

I don't know if Alan G would agree with what I think, but I'd propose this to the group:

 

1. Leica appears to be failing -- in fact, I don't see how it couldn't be. There is some possibility that the owner will continue to support the company from his own pocket, but even deep-pocket owners will usually put up with a never-ending drain only until it threatens their own financial stability. Leica has to earn tens of millions of dollars a year simply to support its staff, even without making a profit. I don't see how they could possibly be doing this.

 

2. The S2 seems to me to be doomed. The wrong product at the wrong time -- so expensive that only rich amateurs could justify buying it, launched in the middle of the most serious world-wide recession since the 1930s. I'm keeping this statement short, for clarity, because there's a lot more that could be said here, but I think that's the bottom line.

 

3. The only hope for the company seems to me to be an M9. The M9 should at a minimum be FF with better high ISO response and better resolution. If it doesn't do this minimum, why bother? Most of the other M8 deficits don't worry me that much -- like the silly removable bottom. Other minimal enhancements might include a twistable LCD if it didn't make the body thicker, a better top LCD that would provide more information, a quieter shutter, software that would allow for some use of non-Leica M-mount lenses, etc. A major change might include some kind of focus-confirmation indicator.

 

It is very clear to me from reading this forum and other Leica forums that for MOST people (not ALL people), Leicas perform a jewelry function, much in the way that expensive watches and Porsche cars do. That is, people want to be seen as Leica/Rolex/Porsche owners, despite the fact that Leicas are hard to use and are limited in function compared to other cameras, that Rolexes don't keep time as well as Timexes, and that using a Porsche at it's full capability is illegal, unethical and immoral anywhere besides a race track and certain lanes of the autobahn.

 

MOST of these people use Leicas to take snapshots, just as they use Porsches to drive back and forth to the grocery store, so the function is that of jewelry, rather than utility. While some people may not like the jewelry argument, the fact is, many people would not buy Leicas if not for this particular Leica "glow." If Leicas were perceived to cheap and common, the jewelry part of the market would vanish, and this would not be good for Leica.

 

There is a subset of people who buy Leicas for the image quality and handling; call these the "image making" people, where the primary focus is on the print, rather than the camera.

 

Leica needs to keep both the "jewelry" and the "image" people.

 

Here are some questions:

 

1. If Leica produced a less expensive camera, perhaps in cooperation with Panasonic, that had an electronic viewfinder, live-view, and native M-lens capability, would M8 and prospective M9 owners object, **if at the same time Leica produced a tradition-based M9?**

 

2. Does it seem reasonable to anybody else that Leica would want to widen the use of its one really viable product, the M lens? How else would this be done, other than building another body?

 

3. It seems likely to me that the biggest and possibly only market for an M9 would be current M8 and Mx-film owners...and since this is not a large market now, and since not all M8 owners and film owners will buy, it seems likely that the M9 market will shrink from the M8 level. Would this not be a reason a to build some kind of camera with a wider appeal?

 

I really like Leicas, and I think AlanG does too, but there are problems, and taking a trip on an Egyptian river isn't going to help Leica. I hope Leica has been considering all of this; but I'm not confident.

 

JC

 

In case people have forgotten the above is the original posting.....and now 15 pages later it is interesting to see the strong views and defense of Leica management decisions by some. I was tempted on day one to jump in as I agree strongly with the original posting, and so clearly do many other members who have contributed. I gave my 10cents worth on thread No64.....

 

Since Thursday am there have been 13 pages of comment on the S2 price, the system, the way it was introduced etc. That thread is going strong and the comment is hardly positive.

 

I hope those that share my views are wrong, and that we will eat humble pie one day when Leica achieves what Dr Kaufmann stated .....ie the 250M€uros per year in sales and can at that level afford the R&D budget. Still fortunately he is taking a five year view, and has deep pockets apparently.

 

Personally I am back to film this week for the Kodachrome Challenge...so I am looking for red and yellow things. Leica's balance sheet?

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Guest BigSplash
I am a reasonable man, prepared to listen to the views of others and respond accordingly.

 

Excellent and I think it is true.....hopefully some members will take a leaf out of your book and not attack those with differing views, yet still very much care about Leica's future. I think the OP is to be congratulated for initiating this thread and those that contributed in a meaningful way.

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Personally I am back to film this week for the Kodachrome Challenge...so I am looking for red and yellow things. Leica's balance sheet?

 

Shouldn't you mind your own business? In my point of view these kind of comments are waste of time only.

 

Regards

Steve

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The good thing about Leica is that they will never go bankrupt.

 

By just asking advise to people in this forum, they will know exactly what to do, when to do it and why.

 

This is fantastic to have so many people caring about Leica running a profitable business, advising about products etc.

 

I agree with people comenting that Leica camera's owner must be really rich, I must the only one who is not. I mean that they must be rich because if they use their business advise to their own lives money must be filling their bank account.

 

There are two kinds of people , the one who mind their own business and sometimes make money an the one who spend their life telling other what to do but never do anything themselves.

 

By the way these people who post after post repeat the same thing do not really innovate. They just tell Leica to do what competition is doing, high ISO, lower price, full frame.... is Leica no longer an innovative company?

 

Have you thought that camera is not its only income?

Have you thought that the S2 maybe just a formula 1 that will give technology for future camera..... R10 may not be dead but just standing by because right now it is to hard to compete with Canon and Nikon.

Market rules... maybe Leica is waiting to see the Nikon "D4" or Canon "MKIV" and the market reaction.

 

Remember this stupid product Leica developped years ago.... it was so useless that now days every camera but Leicas use it.... yes they called it autofocus....

 

20 millions pixels and 6400 ISO for a full frame is close the physical limit for an acceptable quality... why not let Canon and Nikon find out what is the market limit and come at a later date with something really different or better?

 

Rumors is that the M9 comes out on 9-9-9.... well, if this is true, M9 are being built right now so they will be available by October... how many people will have to bite their tongue for naguing about Leica not doing much for the future?.

 

Leica is a privately onwed business, NO one obliges me to buy a Leica camera, this is not a state financed motorway I have to use despite its problems. You want Leica, just buy Leica, you do not want Leica, just don't buy Leica, but please please please, stop telling us here about what Leica should do or should not do.

 

Wishing lists surely help, but keep business advise for your own business and private life.

 

Eric

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...

Wishing lists surely help, but keep business advise for your own business and private life.

 

Eric

 

Thanks, Eric. Its a really funny post. I'll try and restrain my own urges.

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I'm an intensive M6 user.. i bought a brandnew M8+summicron 28mm to have a digital version of my M6+35 cron.

 

The box arrived, i opened it...held it for about 20 minutes, shot 10 pictures and then put it in the box and sent back to the shop.

 

I was really disappointed... it is a lumix inside an M-like body.... i soon realized it was such a bad camera and full of defects that would lose it's value very soon.

 

I'd like a digital M which gets close to the film one... I'll be the first to buy the new M9 at full price if it will keep the promises.

 

I now have a 5D mkII and if Leica manages to give me a leica which produces similar images i'd throw my 5D out of the balcony...

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I'm an intensive M6 user.. i bought a brandnew M8+summicron 28mm to have a digital version of my M6+35 cron.

 

The box arrived, i opened it...held it for about 20 minutes, shot 10 pictures and then put it in the box and sent back to the shop.

 

I was really disappointed... it is a lumix inside an M-like body.... i soon realized it was such a bad camera and full of defects that would lose it's value very soon.

 

I'd like a digital M which gets close to the film one... I'll be the first to buy the new M9 at full price if it will keep the promises.

 

I now have a 5D mkII and if Leica manages to give me a leica which produces similar images i'd throw my 5D out of the balcony...

 

Raffaele, for someone with such a wonderful name I marvel at the lack of depth to your comments and observations about the M8!

 

20 minutes and 10 shots enabled you to assess its worth? I seriously doubt it! Why do you expect any digital camera to approximate a film camera? They are different 'animals'. They serve different purposes. Declaring it a 'bad camera' only declares you as a bad assessor IMO. The M8 has proven itself many times over in competent hands.

 

The fact that you swapped your M8 out for a Canon 5d MK11indicates that you have not yet worked out what you want from a camera because thes two cams offer quite different functionalty and ergonomics. They are anything but interchangeable.

 

As a tool, the M8 is on record as superbly suited for it's purpose, despite some shortcomings that are readily dealt with, just like all other cameras.

 

Before you criticize any equipment, I recommend you examine and test it thoroughly before publicly denouncing it, if only to give some credence to your comments.

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Guest stnami

Come on Erl he is allowed to hate the camera as much as you love it and he never criticised a person for liking the camera. ............. just figured quickly the camera wasn't for him.

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Come on Erl he is allowed to hate the camera as much as you love it and he never criticised a person for liking the camera. ............. just figured quickly the camera wasn't for him.

 

C'mon Imants, read carefully what was stated by both parties.

 

Raffaele is totally free to state he dislikes the camera, but he declared it as a 'bad camera'. That is just not true by any stretch of, even your imagination. He also worries that it will 'lose it's value very soon.' Sounds more like a speculator or collector to me, which is fine.

 

My only argument is with his declaration of 'bad camera' after something less than a "one night stand." That sort of short observation could and should be carried in the camera store prior to purchase. Even then it may only be determined if it suits your intended purpose. Certainly not whether "bad or good."

Edited by erl

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Guest stnami

Remember no collectors there would be no Leica, so convince him to buy one so your camera has follow ups.

Bad/good most speak as individuals on the forum so to him it is bad fair call......... I don't agree with him as I feel it produces some of the best bnw files around with the help of lenses. Other than that I still won't buy a m8 for various reasons which still places the camera in the bad section, still I am in a position to borrow rent etc when I need one........so buying one would be bad

Edited by stnami

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I am differentiating between "bad choice" and "bad camera". Quite different meanings.

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...Raffaele is totally free to state he dislikes the camera, but he declared it as a 'bad camera'. That is just not true by any stretch of, even your imagination...

Agree Erl. I don't like the M8 either but i have never said it is a bad camera. Just the worst M ever made that's all.

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Guest BigSplash
Agree Erl. I don't like the M8 either but i have never said it is a bad camera. Just the worst M ever made that's all.

 

Faffo said that he checked the camera for 20 minutes and concluded that the M8 was not for him..OK. Now you say that it is the worst M ever made. Nobody says why it is so bad.

 

I like the M8 very much and see that it takes great pictures, while passing the Getty Images badge of approval for a Pro camera. Surely the M2 or M3 would be the worst as they did not have the range of viewfinder images and no integrated exposure meter. The M5 had these features but the size of the beast would get my vote as the worst, and I own one..

 

The M8 is smaller than a M5, has the classic lines of an M and the same look and feel. It is easier and faster to handle compared to any DSLR or SLR. It packs a hell of a lot of sophisticated electronics in a small volume.

 

> Apart from full frame which we can argue about if it is truly needed what is wrong with the M8? I have read that the ISO range is limited but personally even with a Noctilux I have not needed to use ISO 2500 but I could see the need if you wanted to capture a wedding reception using only candle light.

 

> The IR issue is annoying but with the correct UVIR filters the problem goes away

 

> People talk about the noise of the sensor....I have not seen this even with shots at night.

 

I'd love to know what is wrong with the M8?

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Surely the M2 or M3 would be the worst as they did not have the range of viewfinder images and no integrated exposure meter.

 

Funniest thing I have read for a long time.

 

Thanks Frank.

 

I can go and walk the dog with a broad grin.

 

 

PS - Surely, the whole point about a Noctilux is that you don't need to go to high ISOs. Unless you are a habitual bat-shooter.

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Come on Gentleman behave, you're not allowed to criticise that illustrious M model.

Otherwise you will be hounded and refered too as a troll. Lol.

 

I beleive the M9 will be released some time this year... and in Australia the asking price will be around 11,000 dollars.

It's about double the price of the Nikon D3 so it should be twice as good or you can buy Three (3) Canon 5D-II.

 

Last week, one store in Melbourne had an M8 demo for around 4,000 Dollars, thats preety good as last year they were selling for nearly double that price.

 

I also noticed S/H M7's are selling for higher prices then I paid for mine new four years ago, interesting.

 

Though I am cross, I bought some more film last week, and they had the cheek to charge me an extra

Two dollars for an E100GX.....Lol.

 

Oh yes one final note on watches, Nasa conducted a hip of tests on which watch was going to the moon

that was to stand the rigorous flight conditions, no it wasn't a Rolex but an Omaga that got the free trip.

And Hassleblad was the Camera of choice.

 

Cheers.

Edited by hamey

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...I'd love to know what is wrong with the M8?

Don't ask me to turn the knife in the wound Frank. This old post says it (almost) all i guess but who cares really? The M9 will be presented next month according to Chasseur d'Images so tomorrow will be another day hopefully.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/40585-whats-your-priority-2.html#post426251

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interesting to see that some prefer picture quality over ergonomic.

 

Am I only the one who prefer ergonomic?

 

If I see myself as die hard m user who used m for 20 years, then take 5D suddenly in hands. It wouldnt work. Rather M8 even it is 100 times worse than 5D.

 

M8 is not good enough because it is not close to films? b*llsh*t. 5d is not close. Not even future M9, M20.

 

well, different priorities.

Edited by tomasis7

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PS - Surely, the whole point about a Noctilux is that you don't need to go to high ISOs. Unless you are a habitual bat-shooter.

 

Being an old bat myself, should I be concerned if I see an M8 with a Noctilux attached pointing at me?

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