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Frank

 

the S2 has absolutely nothing in common with the S1, apart from the S

 

guys,

if you want to discuss the S2, please do so in the S2 discussion, which is developing nicely. Thanks

 

and can we keep the car shots for the Sports and Leisure sub-forum, please?

 

Andy I actually I thought that this thread was about "Let's have it out" and the survival of Leica.

 

In that vain many people have indicated over 13 pages here that the great hope is that S2 would provide the financial sucess needed to keep Leica afloat and ensure the continued development of the M8 and Leica's digital portfolio of technology that the M8 can presumably capitalise on.

 

I have read the 4 pages of S2 threads (posted since this morning !) and there seems to be a huge degree of concern about the camera body price, and some positive comments about the lens pricing. However overall there seems to be a commonly held view that this is NOT going to drive massive profits for Leica that can fund the kind of R&D that the M9 and beyond will need to secure the future of "M" .

 

I see this as an issue as selfishly yet again I see my Leica investment going down the plug hole in value. So much for Leica management knowing what they are doing, and learning from the very many past mistakes. I hope I am wrong. It sure is good to know that Dr Kaufmann is in for the long haul.

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Your Leica investment:confused: Which percentage of the stock do you hold?

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Your Leica investment:confused: Which percentage of the stock do you hold?

 

Another misunderstanding Jaapv......or a clever remark since we both know 96.5% of Leica stock is owed by Dr Kaufmann and he is I believe trying to pickup the rest.

 

I am of course referring to my £30K of Leica "M" cameras and lenses...I know the amount as I have just had it valued for insurance purposes. You will see that many other people on this thread have also mentioned the same concern.

 

I would believe that you may also feel that way having just seen your significant investment in "R" kit devalue I guess you like me are now potentially at risk with your "M" kit if Leica do not deliver a viable business.

 

Still Dr Kaufmann has apparently personally injected 60M€uros of his own money, but then he has considerably more available...several hundred million €uros apparently....presumably from his savings as a school teacher for 15 years ..or was it from the family business?

Below an interesting link about Leica recent history as reported in the Wall Street Journal:

 

Late to Digital, Leica Slow to Refocus - WSJ.com

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No, I don't feel that way about my R lenses, as they function exactly as they did before. Hobby gear is not an investment. It is only worth something -or not as they case may be- if and when one decides to sell. And there is no reason to. Even if Leica should fold, there will be plenty of opportunities to get gear serviced, the quality will still be the same, the images as stunning. Investing is something quite different -that is a fancy way to lose money on the stock market.

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How is this "investment" suddenly going to drop in value?

 

Did you buy all this kit (a lot of money to most people) for investment purposes (i.e. to keep new in box, for resale at a later date), or did you buy it to use?

 

Has it suddenly stopped working? Will it suddenly stop working if Leica were to be no more, next year, the year after, or in 100 year's time?

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

There are independent people all over the world who can repair your Leicas from the 1920s to the 2000s. If Leica go T.U., they will still be able to repair them (albeit some parts might, eventually, become difficult to come by - eventually).

 

I am sure that your Leicas will see you out, Frank, and your children too.

 

I have a much smaller "investment" in Leica kit - I reckon I am up to about £10k all told. But, I am willing to bet that is a more significant investment in terms of net worth than yours is. After all, I don't have an Oyster on the Cote...

 

To be honest, I have never considered any of those £s to be an "investment". I buy stuff to use, and when I no longer have a use for it, I sell it. If I don't get back what I paid for it (my DMR, for instance), then I know that I had a couple of years good use out of it, for a relatively small sum. The vast majority of people, I would suggest, feel exactly the same way. And, no one ever pays me to take photographs for them, so this is all "cash out" - never "cash in".

 

I really, really want Leica to succeed, both with the S2, and the Mx. I am sure that Dr Kaufmann knows what he is doing too, but if he has got it wrong, then I will shed a tear for the company, its workforce and him. But I won;t worry about my Leica kit, because I know that it will still be working and providing someone with enjoyment, long after I am gone.

Edited by andybarton

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Andy I actually I thought that this thread was about "Let's have it out" and the survival of Leica. .

 

If it is, then it should be in the Customer sub-section, not the M8, as it is relevant to everyone with an interest in Leica.

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How is this "investment" suddenly going to drop in value?

 

Did you buy all this kit (a lot of money to most people) for investment purposes (i.e. to keep new in box, for resale at a later date), or did you buy it to use?

 

Has it suddenly stopped working? Will it suddenly stop working if Leica were to be no more, next year, the year after, or in 100 year's time?

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

There are independent people all over the world who can repair your Leicas from the 1920s to the 2000s. If Leica go T.U., they will still be able to repair them (albeit some parts might, eventually, become difficult to come by - eventually).

 

I am sure that your Leicas will see you out, Frank, and your children too.

 

I have a much smaller "investment" in Leica kit - I reckon I am up to about £10k all told. But, I am willing to bet that is a more significant investment in terms of net worth than yours is. After all, I don't have an Oyster on the Cote...

 

To be honest, I have never considered any of those £s to be an "investment". I buy stuff to use, and when I no longer have a use for it, I sell it. If I don't get back what I paid for it (my DMR, for instance), then I know that I had a couple of years good use out of it, for a relatively small sum. The vast majority of people, I would suggest, feel exactly the same way. And, no one ever pays me to take photographs for them, so this is all "cash out" - never "cash in".

 

I really, really want Leica to succeed, both with the S2, and the Mx. I am sure that Dr Kaufmann knows what he is doing too, but if he has got it wrong, then I will shed a tear for the company, its workforce and him. But I won;t worry about my Leica kit, because I know that it will still be working and providing someone with enjoyment, long after I am gone.

Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

Try getting a projector bulb for a Vidikron Helios projector (made by Philips apparently but I do not have the part No) . This was a flagship product when I bought it some years ago.

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Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

Try getting a projector bulb for a Vidikron Helios projector (made by Philips apparently but I do not have the part No) . This was a flagship product when I bought it some years ago.

 

Hi Frank,

 

This site may be of help to you.

 

Projector lamps Vidicron spare lamps

 

Or this one.....

 

http://www.centralpoint.nl/vidikron/

 

 

 

They may not the bulb in stock, but they should be able to point you to someone who may.

Edited by Nicoleica
Found more info.

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Hi Frank,

 

This site may be of help to you.

 

Projector lamps Vidicron spare lamps

 

Or this one.....

 

Welkom op de Vidikron pagina! Hier vindt u alle populaire producten, acties en aanbiedingen van Vidikron. - Central Point

 

 

 

They may not the bulb in stock, but they should be able to point you to someone who may.

 

 

Thanks they have every bulb except fo the Helios model!...appreciate the support.

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Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

True, but then again, I'm not sure that anyone has bought an M8 with the idea that it will still be working in 80 years time (not that anyone bought a Leica in 1929 expecting it to be working in 2009 either)

 

IMO, digital cameras are cameras for the present day. Regardless of their cost, they are short term cameras in the scheme of things and will, in a relatively short period of time, become uneconomical to repair if something serious goes wrong. Just like every other electronic or computer based product.

 

Leica offer a 30 year guarantee on parts availability for the MP. I don't recall a similar commitment for the M8.

Edited by andybarton

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Amazing! The S2 isn't even out yet and the negapottomusses are already calling it the end of Leica! I'm not sure that Leica could ever produce something that wouldn't be complained about endlessly by certain forum members who continually like to predict the end of Leica due to mismanagement. I don't care if an M9 comes out except to read about its short commings and how it means Leica is about to go extinct because of it right here. I know this might be a difficult concept for all of you professed business geniuses but have you thought that the people who have run Leica for uhm, how many years now, 89, might just have a little intelligence going for them and maybe, just maybe, are putting some thought into the future of Leica. This post has been a joke from the beginning and I'm amazed that it has gone on for as many pages as it has having been yesterdays hash to start off with but it seems there are members here who just can't pass up the chance to tell Leica how it oughta be. Somebody please put a bullet in it it's been gasping for reality since day one and is even more delusional now.

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True, but then again, I'm not sure that anyone has bought an M8 with the idea that it will still be working in 80 years time (not that anyone bought a Leica in 1929 expecting it to be working in 2009 either)

 

IMO, digital cameras are cameras for the present day. Regardless of their cost, they are short term cameras in the scheme of things and will, in a relatively short period of time, become uneconomical to repair if something serious goes wrong. Just like every other electronic or computer based product.

 

Leica offer a 30 year guarantee on parts availability for the MP. I don't recall a similar commitment for the M8.

 

I think you're missing the point. Reasonable people buy digital cameras expecting to get limited use out of the cameras but they buy lenses hoping to get a lifetime of use out of the lenses. I suspect many people on this forum (I'm certainly in this camp) have far more money sunk into M glass than M cameras. If one isn't interested in shooting film (as many on the M8 sub-forum, myself included, might not be) then Leica's demise could render one's M mount lenses useless in short order. Perhaps others will produce cameras that work well with them; perhaps not. But it is entirely reasonable for digital-only M users to be particularly concerned about Leica's longevity and the worth of their lens investment (and yes, it is an investment if you spend money expecting to get long-term value out of something whether or not that value is realized monetarily).

 

I hope it is clear from the above that I'm not weighing in on whether or not Leica will survive. But I think you and others are minimizing a legitimate concern.

Edited by dalippe

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Well, if you promised not to buy that $ 20.000 motorbike this year at the same time you would be in a considerably better position...

 

Very smooth. Nicely played. (cue sound of golf clap)

 

 

I would still recommend donning a helmet.

 

 

8-)

Edited by thrid

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Amazing! The S2 isn't even out yet and the negapottomusses are already calling it the end of Leica! I'm not sure that Leica could ever produce something that wouldn't be complained about endlessly by certain forum members who continually like to predict the end of Leica due to mismanagement. I don't care if an M9 comes out except to read about its short commings and how it means Leica is about to go extinct because of it right here. I know this might be a difficult concept for all of you professed business geniuses but have you thought that the people who have run Leica for uhm, how many years now, 89, might just have a little intelligence going for them and maybe, just maybe, are putting some thought into the future of Leica. This post has been a joke from the beginning and I'm amazed that it has gone on for as many pages as it has having been yesterdays hash to start off with but it seems there are members here who just can't pass up the chance to tell Leica how it oughta be. Somebody please put a bullet in it it's been gasping for reality since day one and is even more delusional now.

 

Right! Mom, they're being mean to Leica again. Naughty, naughty. Shame on them.

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I think you're missing the point. Reasonable people buy digital cameras expecting to get limited use out of the cameras but they buy lenses hoping to get a lifetime of use out of the lenses. I suspect many people on this forum (I'm certainly in this camp) have far more money sunk into M glass than M cameras. If one isn't interested in shooting film (as many on the M8 sub-forum, myself included, might not be) then Leica's demise could render one's M mount lenses useless in short order. Perhaps others will produce cameras that work well with them; perhaps not. But it is entirely reasonable for digital-only M users to be particularly concerned about Leica's longevity and the worth of their lens investment (and yes, it is an investment if you spend money expecting to get long-term value out of something whether or not that value is realized monetarily).

 

I hope it is clear from the above that I'm not weighing in on whether or not Leica will survive. But I think you and others are minimizing a legitimate concern.

 

I obviously can only agree with you. That is my big concern and that is also why I hope Leica not only survive but grow and become very healthy again.

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But it is entirely reasonable for digital-only M users to be particularly concerned about Leica's longevity and the worth of their lens investment (and yes, it is an investment if you spend money expecting to get long-term value out of something whether or not that value is realized monetarily).

 

Good point.

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Sorry, even if Leica would go down, looking at the thread below it doesn't seem to be impossible to me to repair a M8. I would assume the most difficult parts should be the sensor (Kodak) and the shutter (Copal).

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/21331-anatomy-leica-m8.html

 

By the way - my first digital camera (Canon G2 from 2002) is still doing fine.

 

OK, but what happens, if Leica, Kodak and Copal go down?

File:Tein cover 3.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Stefan

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Right! Mom, they're being mean to Leica again. Naughty, naughty. Shame on them.

Arrogant, self serving, delusional but I'd never call them mean, little child.

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Good point.

Thanks! If only everyone else could come to some mutual understanding just as quickly this thread wouldn't need to be so long

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