Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jrc

Let's have it out

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

This thread is quite amusing! So this is what you get up to in the M8 forum!

 

Let me approach the question from a different angle. As a film M user (and R user, alas), what kind of digital M would prompt me to upgrade from my current almost unused C-Lux 2 to a digital M?

 

1. Full-frame. It's important for me to use my lenses at their nominal focal lengths. If I want a different format, I'l go larger, not smaller.

 

2. Improved high ISO performance. The low-light capability of digital is one of the only things about it that interests me.

 

3. No IR filter. I want to be able to switch lenses between a film body and a digital body seamlessly.

 

These are the three issues that I see as deal-killers for me personally any time I'm tempted to part with the money to buy a digital M (aside from the fact that digital as a medium so far leaves me cold and my attempts to get into it have so far been stillborn).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is quite amusing! So this is what you get up to in the M8 forum!

 

Let me approach the question from a different angle. As a film M user (and R user, alas), what kind of digital M would prompt me to upgrade from my current almost unused C-Lux 2 to a digital M?

 

1. Full-frame. It's important for me to use my lenses at their nominal focal lengths. If I want a different format, I'l go larger, not smaller.

 

2. Improved high ISO performance. The low-light capability of digital is one of the only things about it that interests me.

 

3. No IR filter. I want to be able to switch lenses between a film body and a digital body seamlessly.

 

These are the three issues that I see as deal-killers for me personally any time I'm tempted to part with the money to buy a digital M (aside from the fact that digital as a medium so far leaves me cold and my attempts to get into it have so far been stillborn).

 

i think JBA has hit it exactly right in that these are the three principal issues that Leica has been addressing in the M9 development, which (and here I guess) probably started right when the M8 went into production or even before that.

 

Stefan Daniel indicated that the IR aspect was the most troublesome, but it would not surprise me one bit if that had not been substantially solved by now.

 

Whether the M9 will have any other bells-and-whistles is pure conjecture at this point. Personally I'm on the keep it simple side of the fence, but like RichC I would like to see at least some of Thrid's suggestions (EV, ISO adjust controls added) implemented.

 

As for the other side to this thread Leica do monitor this forum so they will be aware of the opposing views. However I"m content to leave the business decisions to them - they know their business; they're no fools and will have learnt from past errors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jaap, just promise her wholeheartedly to hold off on replacing the bentley until next year. Suddenly a couple of M9's looks like a wonderful bargin.

 

.

 

With prices as they are over here, just promising not to fill up the Bentley's fuel tank until next year would have almost the same effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash

There have been many inputs above that Leica knows what it is doing etc. and they have learned from their mistakes.Wait for the announcement on price and availability of the S2 ..it was promised for July.

 

Well here is the announcement:

 

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0907/09073001leicassystemprice.asphe

 

 

At £16,000 for the body alone I guess it will be a smash hit.

 

Someone in an earlier thread suggested that Professionals demanded a return on investment for the kit that they buy...and most already use Hasselblad and Phase One for fashion etc. Enough said....It looks like another chapter in the Leica legend has begun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Someone in an earlier thread suggested that Professionals demanded a return on investment for the kit that they buy...and most already use Hasselblad and Phase One for fashion etc. Enough said....It looks like another chapter in the Leica legend has begun

 

Well Frank I didn't believe it could happen - but I actually agree with you here!

 

The fact that a comprehensive working system for a professional would need two bodies and at least a couple of lenses, then we're into discussing an investment of possibly $60,000 or more just as a start. And at first this will be a leap into a totally unknown quantity for most pros.

Compared to this, Hasselblad are introducing a digital back that will be compatible with most of their bodies and lenses made since 1957 - for $14K.

 

I really fear that the chapter you're talking about here might be titled 'FINAL'.

 

PS: I do feel I should add that I genuinely hope this isn't the case. I seriously want and need this camera to succeed, as I do fear that Leica will just disappear if it fails. I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone who knows anything about how many pre-orders there already are, or from anyone intending to buy the system themselves? Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Edited by plasticman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the S2 is aimed at the professional market, the price looks more or less reasonable. Not that I will buy one because 1) I am not a professional photographer, 2) I am not in the market for an AF DSLR of any signature.

 

Just for comparison a IR thermal imaging camera with three lenses costs about 40keuro, no AF, no ergonomics no nothing, one component Ge lenses, small 1Mb? sensor. A set of decent objective lenses for a microsope is about 15keuro, that is excluding the microcope body, lamp, camera etc.

 

The pro market is a different scene compared to the standard consumer market.

 

Whether the price is too high for the amateur market is a different issue. I guess most people find the M8 with one lens to be too expensive for the amateur market.

 

Leica is a niche company and wants to remain a niche company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Well Frank I didn't believe it could happen - but I actually agree with you here!

 

The fact that a comprehensive working system for a professional would need two bodies and at least a couple of lenses, then we're into discussing an investment of possibly $60,000 or more just as a start. And at first this will be a leap into a totally unknown quantity for most pros.

Compared to this, Hasselblad are introducing a digital back that will be compatible with most of their bodies and lenses made since 1957 - for $14K.

 

I really fear that the chapter you're talking about here might be titled 'FINAL'.

 

PS: I do feel I should add that I genuinely hope this isn't the case. I seriously want and need this camera to succeed, as I do fear that Leica will just disappear if it fails. I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone who knows anything about how many pre-orders there already are, or from anyone intending to buy the system themselves? Let's keep our fingers crossed!

 

I do not believe that at this "introductory" price S2 is viable...The S1 sold 150 units I believe I guess the S2 at this price could sell a few thousand maybe as it is more compact and easier to handle than S1.

 

If their strategy is to crank up volume production at this high price and then subsequetly bomb the price (or bring out S2 junior version) then that could be smart and maybe very competitive with the pro Canons and Nikons.

 

Otherwise I guess we are seeing Leica again in difficulty....I hope not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frank

 

the S2 has absolutely nothing in common with the S1, apart from the S

 

guys,

if you want to discuss the S2, please do so in the S2 discussion, which is developing nicely. Thanks

 

and can we keep the car shots for the Sports and Leisure sub-forum, please?

Edited by andybarton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash
Frank

 

the S2 has absolutely nothing in common with the S1, apart from the S

 

guys,

if you want to discuss the S2, please do so in the S2 discussion, which is developing nicely. Thanks

 

and can we keep the car shots for the Sports and Leisure sub-forum, please?

 

Andy I actually I thought that this thread was about "Let's have it out" and the survival of Leica.

 

In that vain many people have indicated over 13 pages here that the great hope is that S2 would provide the financial sucess needed to keep Leica afloat and ensure the continued development of the M8 and Leica's digital portfolio of technology that the M8 can presumably capitalise on.

 

I have read the 4 pages of S2 threads (posted since this morning !) and there seems to be a huge degree of concern about the camera body price, and some positive comments about the lens pricing. However overall there seems to be a commonly held view that this is NOT going to drive massive profits for Leica that can fund the kind of R&D that the M9 and beyond will need to secure the future of "M" .

 

I see this as an issue as selfishly yet again I see my Leica investment going down the plug hole in value. So much for Leica management knowing what they are doing, and learning from the very many past mistakes. I hope I am wrong. It sure is good to know that Dr Kaufmann is in for the long haul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your Leica investment:confused: Which percentage of the stock do you hold?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash
Your Leica investment:confused: Which percentage of the stock do you hold?

 

Another misunderstanding Jaapv......or a clever remark since we both know 96.5% of Leica stock is owed by Dr Kaufmann and he is I believe trying to pickup the rest.

 

I am of course referring to my £30K of Leica "M" cameras and lenses...I know the amount as I have just had it valued for insurance purposes. You will see that many other people on this thread have also mentioned the same concern.

 

I would believe that you may also feel that way having just seen your significant investment in "R" kit devalue I guess you like me are now potentially at risk with your "M" kit if Leica do not deliver a viable business.

 

Still Dr Kaufmann has apparently personally injected 60M€uros of his own money, but then he has considerably more available...several hundred million €uros apparently....presumably from his savings as a school teacher for 15 years ..or was it from the family business?

Below an interesting link about Leica recent history as reported in the Wall Street Journal:

 

Late to Digital, Leica Slow to Refocus - WSJ.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I don't feel that way about my R lenses, as they function exactly as they did before. Hobby gear is not an investment. It is only worth something -or not as they case may be- if and when one decides to sell. And there is no reason to. Even if Leica should fold, there will be plenty of opportunities to get gear serviced, the quality will still be the same, the images as stunning. Investing is something quite different -that is a fancy way to lose money on the stock market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How is this "investment" suddenly going to drop in value?

 

Did you buy all this kit (a lot of money to most people) for investment purposes (i.e. to keep new in box, for resale at a later date), or did you buy it to use?

 

Has it suddenly stopped working? Will it suddenly stop working if Leica were to be no more, next year, the year after, or in 100 year's time?

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

There are independent people all over the world who can repair your Leicas from the 1920s to the 2000s. If Leica go T.U., they will still be able to repair them (albeit some parts might, eventually, become difficult to come by - eventually).

 

I am sure that your Leicas will see you out, Frank, and your children too.

 

I have a much smaller "investment" in Leica kit - I reckon I am up to about £10k all told. But, I am willing to bet that is a more significant investment in terms of net worth than yours is. After all, I don't have an Oyster on the Cote...

 

To be honest, I have never considered any of those £s to be an "investment". I buy stuff to use, and when I no longer have a use for it, I sell it. If I don't get back what I paid for it (my DMR, for instance), then I know that I had a couple of years good use out of it, for a relatively small sum. The vast majority of people, I would suggest, feel exactly the same way. And, no one ever pays me to take photographs for them, so this is all "cash out" - never "cash in".

 

I really, really want Leica to succeed, both with the S2, and the Mx. I am sure that Dr Kaufmann knows what he is doing too, but if he has got it wrong, then I will shed a tear for the company, its workforce and him. But I won;t worry about my Leica kit, because I know that it will still be working and providing someone with enjoyment, long after I am gone.

Edited by andybarton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andy I actually I thought that this thread was about "Let's have it out" and the survival of Leica. .

 

If it is, then it should be in the Customer sub-section, not the M8, as it is relevant to everyone with an interest in Leica.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash
How is this "investment" suddenly going to drop in value?

 

Did you buy all this kit (a lot of money to most people) for investment purposes (i.e. to keep new in box, for resale at a later date), or did you buy it to use?

 

Has it suddenly stopped working? Will it suddenly stop working if Leica were to be no more, next year, the year after, or in 100 year's time?

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

There are independent people all over the world who can repair your Leicas from the 1920s to the 2000s. If Leica go T.U., they will still be able to repair them (albeit some parts might, eventually, become difficult to come by - eventually).

 

I am sure that your Leicas will see you out, Frank, and your children too.

 

I have a much smaller "investment" in Leica kit - I reckon I am up to about £10k all told. But, I am willing to bet that is a more significant investment in terms of net worth than yours is. After all, I don't have an Oyster on the Cote...

 

To be honest, I have never considered any of those £s to be an "investment". I buy stuff to use, and when I no longer have a use for it, I sell it. If I don't get back what I paid for it (my DMR, for instance), then I know that I had a couple of years good use out of it, for a relatively small sum. The vast majority of people, I would suggest, feel exactly the same way. And, no one ever pays me to take photographs for them, so this is all "cash out" - never "cash in".

 

I really, really want Leica to succeed, both with the S2, and the Mx. I am sure that Dr Kaufmann knows what he is doing too, but if he has got it wrong, then I will shed a tear for the company, its workforce and him. But I won;t worry about my Leica kit, because I know that it will still be working and providing someone with enjoyment, long after I am gone.

Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

Try getting a projector bulb for a Vidikron Helios projector (made by Philips apparently but I do not have the part No) . This was a flagship product when I bought it some years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

Try getting a projector bulb for a Vidikron Helios projector (made by Philips apparently but I do not have the part No) . This was a flagship product when I bought it some years ago.

 

Hi Frank,

 

This site may be of help to you.

 

Projector lamps Vidicron spare lamps

 

Or this one.....

 

http://www.centralpoint.nl/vidikron/

 

 

 

They may not the bulb in stock, but they should be able to point you to someone who may.

Edited by Nicoleica
Found more info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest BigSplash
Hi Frank,

 

This site may be of help to you.

 

Projector lamps Vidicron spare lamps

 

Or this one.....

 

Welkom op de Vidikron pagina! Hier vindt u alle populaire producten, acties en aanbiedingen van Vidikron. - Central Point

 

 

 

They may not the bulb in stock, but they should be able to point you to someone who may.

 

 

Thanks they have every bulb except fo the Helios model!...appreciate the support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your points are all valid.....except that getting a digital back repaired might not be as easy as fixing a mechanical "M" if Leica was not around to stand behind their product.

 

True, but then again, I'm not sure that anyone has bought an M8 with the idea that it will still be working in 80 years time (not that anyone bought a Leica in 1929 expecting it to be working in 2009 either)

 

IMO, digital cameras are cameras for the present day. Regardless of their cost, they are short term cameras in the scheme of things and will, in a relatively short period of time, become uneconomical to repair if something serious goes wrong. Just like every other electronic or computer based product.

 

Leica offer a 30 year guarantee on parts availability for the MP. I don't recall a similar commitment for the M8.

Edited by andybarton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing! The S2 isn't even out yet and the negapottomusses are already calling it the end of Leica! I'm not sure that Leica could ever produce something that wouldn't be complained about endlessly by certain forum members who continually like to predict the end of Leica due to mismanagement. I don't care if an M9 comes out except to read about its short commings and how it means Leica is about to go extinct because of it right here. I know this might be a difficult concept for all of you professed business geniuses but have you thought that the people who have run Leica for uhm, how many years now, 89, might just have a little intelligence going for them and maybe, just maybe, are putting some thought into the future of Leica. This post has been a joke from the beginning and I'm amazed that it has gone on for as many pages as it has having been yesterdays hash to start off with but it seems there are members here who just can't pass up the chance to tell Leica how it oughta be. Somebody please put a bullet in it it's been gasping for reality since day one and is even more delusional now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue., Read more about our Privacy Policy