Let's have it out

[Nicoleica]

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Please calm down guys. It's starting to get personal again. (Comment wise!)

[Jeff S]

This kind of remark always sets me wondering: How is it possible to sell more used bodies than new ones, unless there is an industry building new used bodies?

 

...because used bodies can be sold over and over and over...and new bodies can only be sold new once?

 

Jeff

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[offshore]

Thanks for the encouragement. I may even do as you say when I have finished my current commitments. Not sure they are ready for outside help however.

Always an excuse, never a reason frank?

[AlanG]

Alan, Where on earth did you get the idea that a camera's ease of use or lack thereof has anything at all to do with the quality of the photographs made by a photographer? Great photographs are made by the photographer's subconscious mind, not the conscious part of his brain and certainly not by his eyes or his fingers...

 

I never said that it is the camera that makes a great photograph.. Someone else on this thread said that the Leica was for photographers who liked using their brain, eyes and fingers.

 

Here it is again restated -

 

My point if that on the one hand Leica users say the camera is minimalistic and thus doesn't require you to learn how to use many buttons and features. Yet on the other hand people say that it takes a while to learn how to use a Leica. So which is it?

 

And they also say that DSLRs automate everything and make it too easy - thus you don't need to use your "eyes, fingers, and brain" whatever that means... But despite this automation making things so easy, DSLRs are hard to use because they are too complicated. So if true, doesn't that mean that DSLR users have to develop comparable or more camera skills than what Leica users do with their eyes, fingers, and brains?

 

Don't you see the obvious contradictions to these arguments? Either the DSLR is too easy or it is too complicated. It can't be both. If the Leica is so simple, why does it take a while to develop the focusing skills and understand the menus and various foibles in order to use it quickly and effectively? "Minimalism" does not directly transfer into a faster learning curve.

Edited July 29, 2009 by AlanG

[andybarton]

A dSLR can be both.

 

It's easy to pick one up, switch it on, click the shutter, and get an image that is in focus (might not be what you want in focus, but, hey ho) and reasonably well exposed. That's what most people who take photographs want.

 

It's complicated, in as much as there are 12 main menu options, each of which have 7 sub-menus. It's complicated because it has 20 different buttons thrown all over the body, some of which you need to go to page 365 of the manual to find out what it does and how it works. It's complicated because it has 54 focus spots in the viewfinder.

 

An M is simple because it doesn't have any of that. But it's complicated because you have to put your brain, as well as your right index finger into gear.

 

So, they are both complicated and simple. At the same time.

 

Just my opinion.

[delander †]

I hope there aren't many at Leica reading this thread. They must be laughing at what is going on.

 

Can someone come up with a suggestion for going forward that is not just 'lets do more of what everyone else does'?

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

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...because used bodies can be sold over and over and over...and new bodies can only be sold new once?

 

Jeff

Never thought of that one Now we need statistics on the turnover of Leica cameras on the used market

[Jeff S]

Regarding Alan's and Andy's comments....

 

Reminds me of Mark Twain's quote..."I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead." Sometimes, short and sweet is harder than long and complicated.

Jeff

[Guest BigSplash]

Always an excuse, never a reason frank?

 

Can you please explain this comment as I honestly do not understand. It's crisp and pointed so it is at least in character....but does not make any sense to me. What excuse? What reason?

[Guest BigSplash]

I hope there aren't many at Leica reading this thread. They must be laughing at what is going on.

 

Can someone come up with a suggestion for going forward that is not just 'lets do more of what everyone else does'?

 

Jeff

 

I would hope that they are trying to explain (perhaps with some trepidation) to their boss

> How they will sell 250M€uros of kit, against the barriers we have collectively outlined in this thread.

> How they will produce the stuff at the quality and volumes expected and at lower costs.

> Meanwhile I guess the service dept. will continue to take pride in 80% of all repairs being completed at a proper quality level in a mere 5 days

 

I imagine the forum will here decide if we can agree on if a special button (for exposure memory) is required or if this will be a distraction for the M user

[jaapv]

I would hope that they are trying to explain (perhaps with some trepidation) to their boss

> How they will sell 250M€uros of kit, against the barriers we have collectively outlined in this thread.

Unsubstantiated figure, plucked from thin air

> How they will produce the stuff at the quality and volumes expected and at lower costs.

Don't worry, that is an ongoing proces, sometimes with the help of outside consultants

> Meanwhile I guess the service dept. will continue to take pride in 80% of all repairs being completed at a proper quality level in a mere 5 days

You bet

 

I imagine the forum will here decide if we can agree on if a special button (for exposure memory) is required or if this will be a distraction for the M user

This forum decides nothing, zilch

[ken_tanaka]

Trouble is that many of the high end buyers also want the camera because it is exclusive to only a small segment of the population. It has snob value attached to it..........it's a Leica that's where it's value is as a item is, not a run of the mill camera meant for the everyday punter .

 

"Trouble is" that snob value only works when others realize they're being snobbed. But to the vast majority of the point an' shootin' world a Leica M8 looks simply like grandpa's antique camera.

 

I know it's unthinkable to write such heresy in this Leica shrine but for all its expense a Leica camera just has no "bling" value. At best it has "geek" value among a very small group of hobbyists.

[thrid]

6000$ is not so much in Euros right now, and Leica does live in the Euro-zone. It is interesting to note that it seems that sales are down in the USA, but not in Europe or Asia, despite the recession.

 

I'm sorry Jaap, but $6000 or roughly 4500 euros is a lot of money anywhere, unless you are very well off.

 

 

Anyway, a more reasonable lineup would seem to be

 

An M9 at, or slightly above, the current M8.2 prices

An M8.2 (M8.3??) about 1250 Euro below that

Panaleicas

 

Even more expensive? The problem right now is that the camera is too expensive.

 

 

And weathersealing? Not so simple with the current design, but one can hope...

 

Actually not that difficult with the current classic body shape. There aren't a lot of entry points, the biggest one being the the shutter release and that is not difficult to correct. Pentax manages to do this with sub $1000 bodies that have many more buttons than the M8.

 

Existing lenses could not be sealed, but you could add a gasket at the mount. Think of this of an opportunity for Leica to sell a pro line of sealed lenses to those who desire them.

[thrid]

Trouble is that many of the high end buyers also want the camera because it is exclusive to only a small segment of the population. It has snob value attached to it..........it's a Leica that's where it's value is as a item is, not a run of the mill camera meant for the everyday punter .

 

I really don't care if the gear polishers, rappers and collectors get their feathers ruffled if the camera suddenly loses it's snob appeal, because it is priced to be what it is supposed to be; a tool for photographers.

 

Photographers or people who aspire to be photographers outnumber the country club set by a wide margin. If you are in the business of selling cameras and not fashion accessories, then those are the people Leica should be worrying about.

 

Leica's reputation is built on the excellence of it's products. I don't care if it falls out of favor with people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Edited July 29, 2009 by thrid

[thrid]

This kind of remark always sets me wondering: How is it possible to sell more used bodies than new ones, unless there is an industry building new used bodies? Now that is the case with diamond necklaces amongst my female aquaintances as well...

 

At one of my dealers a lot of people traded in their M8 for a D3 / D700. Or they traded in because they got bored with the M8 or did not like using a rangefinder. Sales for new bodies were slow, but he could sell all of the used bodies he could get his hands on. I believe this is one reason why Leica killed the upgrade program.

 

 

Forgetting one thing: in general Leica cannot expand their production in the current setup. They have been producing an average of about 15000 M cameras a year for the last half-century, and a demand of 20.000 as they had in 2007 with the M8 clearly overstressed the production facility. So even if one could generate demand, there is no way to satisfy it.

 

Leica used to build a lot more than 12,000 or 20,000 bodies a year. They are building a brand new factory and I'm pretty sure they factored in growth.

 

Isn't at the basis of capitalism the pursuit of increasing sales, increasing revenues and expanding production capacity? I can't imagine that Kaufmann would be unhappy if he had to increase production capacity to meet the demand of 40,000 units a year.

 

 

That is undoubtedly true I do not consider myself excessively wealthy, nor are most of the Leica owners I know. Upper-middle class is nearer the mark. It is just how one spends one's money..

 

I work in the movie business and make a healthy salary. I don't own a swimming pool, I don't have a starlet mistress, nor do I have a coke habit and I rarely drink; so I'm not exactly throwing my money around. I used to own a Mercedes, but sold it when I moved.

 

But I can't just blindly write a $10,000 check for an M8.2 with Summicron-M 2/28, let alone also afford a backup body. Contrast that with the $3500 I dropped on my D700. No problem.

 

$10,000 the cost of a compact car. It's a lot of money for a luxury item, unless the income of a middle class family starts at $300,000.

[thrid]

Have you been to the factory, Frank? Jaap and I (and thousands of others) have. We have seen how Leicas are made.

 

Driving volume through the roof is not possible with the current set up. There aren't enough skilled workers to do the work to double volume. How would you propose that they do this, without adding huge capital investment? Ask untrained workers to make lenses at home?.

 

Again, a catch 22 situation. Yes, they need skilled workers that can't be trained overnight, but there was a time when Leica was turning out over 100,000 bodies a year plus a catalog of lenses and accessories that was as thick as a phonebook.

 

If they had two entry level models that did not have to be produced in Germany or up to the extremely high standards of the M-series, they could increase cash flow and then use that money to increase overall production capacity. But you can't do that if the only product you make and sell is a highend model. Rollei fell in to that trap...

Edited July 29, 2009 by thrid

[jaapv]

100000 bodies a year? what year might that be? it is not in the history books....

[Guest BigSplash]

Unsubstantiated figure, plucked from thin airDon't worry, that is an ongoing proces, sometimes with the help of outside consultants You betThis forum decides nothing, zilch

 

Jaapv I resent very much that you would suggest that I would pluck unsubstantiated numbers out of thin area....that suggests unprofessionalism.

 

Please note at least this link...there are many others:

 

THENUMBERSGURU.COM: Leica Camera - Sales and Profit Fiscal Year 2008

 

The following is identified within the above link:

quote

The annual revenue for its last fiscal year was 150 million euros, or $213 million dollars. Sales for its first fiscal quarter, ended June 30, were 26.999 million euros, less than half of the previous year's first quarter. The company had a loss of 3.85 million euros for FY 2008, ended March 2008. It anticipates a loss approaching 10 million euros for the fiscal year ending March 2009. Mr. Kaufman estimates that sales have to grow by about 66 percent to 250 million euros to finance the R&D spending Leica needs to stay competitive in digital markets.

unquote.

 

FYI I think a rough analysis of the numbers suggests to me at least that Dr Kaufmann is spot on.

 

 

You also say that plucking numbers out of thin air is an ongoing process...Untrue for me at least..If you want more visibility on Leica Camera AG financials try the link below:

 

Leica Camera AG (LCAGk): Financial Statements - BusinessWeek

 

The above has very detailed information shown graphically etc as seen over several years, far more than on Leica's company site

[enty]

This thread has totally lost it's direction...I'm outta here for a while

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[offshore]

Can you please explain this comment as I honestly do not understand. It's crisp and pointed so it is at least in character....but does not make any sense to me. What excuse? What reason?

Because frank it seems your only "commitments" are to spend endless hours on this forum writing lengthy posts about how you think Leica and everyone else should operate. It seems, if you are for real, that you would be spending your time at putting together a business proposal for Leica (or some other company in distress) and knocking on their door. Or is it that the library is open and the computers are on line?