delander † Posted July 28, 2009 Share #121 Posted July 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) eg If today the Summarit family of lenses represents only 50% of the more expensive high luminosity types in units shipped this has to be a commercial disaster for Leica compounded by the initial "costly" marketing plan for the Summarit series that apparently as a sales initiative simply did not work and was withdrawn. Perhaps the lack of success of the Summarit lens is good indicator that producing a lower priced M type camera would also be the wrong move. Leica customers prefer the best the company can produce and are prepared to pay for it even though they may moan at the prices. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Hi delander †, Take a look here Let's have it out. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #122 Posted July 28, 2009 The old misconception. The way to achieve AE lock for multiple exposures is to go to manual. Some users seem to have set the speed dial to A and then spilled Superglue on it. This is what I do.......gosh I am good! I also very often in difficult high contrast light conditions go one speed up and down to repeat the shot if this is feasible . HOWEVER > I think that those who have always had an electronic camera camera most likely think and behave differently. They most likely will want to use their camera ALWAYS set at automatic and they never use the manual speeds. Who says that this is wrong? > I think it is a very fair point that Leica market research need to understand whether or not this has defacto become the potential new Leica camera buyer? If it is I guess we old guys need to accept that cameras will change in future for the new user style. > How far down that road does Leica need to go to sell cameras is the real question for Leica to answer? I guess a future M9 or M10 may need to have: > Optical Rangefinder REMOVED...OK I personally would not like this for emotional reasons. However if I could use all my Leica lenses and something better was offered why not? > Display replaced with a high quality LCD display in a viewfinder with a next generation focussing technology integrated to the display and the lens (I understand that Stefan hinted that this was where they were going) > AE lock > Data in the viewfinder display for ISO, etc etc. > Autofocus > Other? I think tha challenge for Leica will be to keep the classic look and feel and avoid becoming another happy snapper camera like the DLUX 4 or whatever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 28, 2009 Share #123 Posted July 28, 2009 [quote name='frankowen@wanadoo.fr;977881 > How far down that road does Leica need to go to sell cameras is the real question for Leica to answer? I guess a future M9 or M10 may need to have: > Optical Rangefinder REMOVED...OK I personally would not like this for emotional reasons. However if I could use all my Leica lenses and something better was offered why not? > Display replaced with a high quality LCD display in a viewfinder with a next generation focussing technology integrated to the display and the lens (I understand that Stefan hinted that this was where they were going) > AE lock > Data in the viewfinder display for ISO' date=' etc etc. > Autofocus > Other? I think tha challenge for Leica will be to keep the classic look and feel and avoid becoming another happy snapper camera like the DLUX 4 or whatever.[/quote'] This stuff would be a dead end for the Leica M, I for one would never buy it. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 28, 2009 Share #124 Posted July 28, 2009 Actually I would buy something like a Nikkormat ftn with a digital sensor. I wish Nikon would make it. But i suppose most of those on this forum have no idea what a Nikkormat was. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #125 Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) This is what I do.......gosh I am good! I also very often in difficult high contrast light conditions go one speed up and down to repeat the shot if this is feasible . HOWEVER > I think that those who have always had an electronic camera camera most likely think and behave differently. They most likely will want to use their camera ALWAYS set at automatic and they never use the manual speeds. Who says that this is wrong? > I think it is a very fair point that Leica market research need to understand whether or not this has defacto become the potential new Leica camera buyer? If it is I guess we old guys need to accept that cameras will change in future for the new user style. > How far down that road does Leica need to go to sell cameras is the real question for Leica to answer? I guess a future M9 or M10 may need to have: > Optical Rangefinder REMOVED...OK I personally would not like this for emotional reasons. However if I could use all my Leica lenses and something better was offered why not? > Display replaced with a high quality LCD display in a viewfinder with a next generation focussing technology integrated to the display and the lens (I understand that Stefan hinted that this was where they were going) > AE lock > Data in the viewfinder display for ISO, etc etc. > Autofocus > Other? I think tha challenge for Leica will be to keep the classic look and feel and avoid becoming another happy snapper camera like the DLUX 4 or whatever. Dude - buy an EP1. Plus - this is a totally unfounded myth that only old guys want to manually control their cameras. Where are you getting this information? I'm amazed at the comprehensive market research you are doing in your spare time Frank. If only Leica would actually employ you as CEO, you'd put the company to rights in no time eh? Either that, or put them out of business in the twinkle of an eye. PS: > Display replaced with a high quality LCD display in a viewfinder with a next generation focussing technology integrated to the display and the lens (I understand that Stefan hinted that this was where they were going). Crikey - if I were Stefan Daniel I would personally come round to your house and take back your M8 for spreading stuff like that. Please point me to where Stefan Daniel has said that the rangefinder is going to be replaced with an EVF with all this bs displayed in it. Frank - tut tut for making stuff up. Edited July 28, 2009 by plasticman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted July 28, 2009 Share #126 Posted July 28, 2009 My links are obvious so think before you flap your mouth next time You may want to take some of your own advice, since you're the one who started with the holier than thou snide remarks. And just for the record, if you're going to talk tough to people, do it to their face, not from the safety of your keyboard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #127 Posted July 28, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) This stuff would be a dead end for the Leica M, I for one would never buy it. Jeff Maybe ....but how else do you see Leica achieving a revival of sales to 250M€uro per year against a backdrop of last year's reported numbers of 150M€uros and to June 2008 a 50% drop. on the previous same period a year earlier? I believe (and that is the subject of this thread) Leica must think out of the box and look at making tough radical decisions that would do well to exploit new technologies as priority No1. If as a second priority they can keep their heritage that would be smart. The question is if it is possible to achieve both goals at the same time and appeal to new clients. Personally I would not have bought a M8 last month if I did not already have 12 lenses but I am not sure that this legacy market will keep Leica healthy for the long term. It's a pity but that is life Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #128 Posted July 28, 2009 Could you point us to the source of your 250 M € ? What publication? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #129 Posted July 28, 2009 Perhaps the lack of success of the Summarit lens is good indicator that producing a lower priced M type camera would also be the wrong move. Leica customers prefer the best the company can produce and are prepared to pay for it even though they may moan at the prices. Jeff You certainly have an excellent point and certainly whatever they do it will need to be a high value camera targeting a specific niche. I just do not think they have figured out what it is yet......and if they have they have certainly not communicated this, and built confidence that they are on the right track. We often talk about the retail price but we neglect the following: > Less Dealer Margins ......Gives price to Dealer from Leica > production volumes x cost to build = Total Cost to build > Cost to Market and Position the product > R&D plus Product Engineering Costs > Capital Investment Costs > Inventory Cost (here we are told they pay for 2 years materials IN ADVANCE) > Warranty Costs and rework in production > Dealer Training Costs? > Leica own TOTAL costs > production volumes x Price to dealer = Total Sales Price as seen by Leica > Leica own TOTAL costs > Leica own margins Simplistically Leica need to figure out how they maximize volumes and price to cover all of the other costs and generate profit. It seems that the lower price Summarit did NOT achieve that so the strategy does seem flawed in this respect. On the other hand I guess the attempt to build a highly desirable S2 is a great way of generating a high value product ...but what about the volumes? What about the high R&D budget? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 28, 2009 Share #130 Posted July 28, 2009 Could you point us to the source of your 250 M € ? What publication? Frank doesn't need a publication, Jaap. He has all the information he needs right inside his own head. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #131 Posted July 28, 2009 I know, Mani. He makes everything up. He even made himself up, it seems Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent10D Posted July 28, 2009 Share #132 Posted July 28, 2009 Hi guys! Just thought I'd pop in and see what's up. How's the ol' Leica Forum camaraderie and harmony coming along? Oh ... never mind ... I'll come back in a couple more months ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 28, 2009 Share #133 Posted July 28, 2009 It seems this subject is still alive and well although it has been hashed over how many times on this forum? Although there were protestations in the beginning this forum still delights in telling Leica how to do things, endless comparisons to jewelry and cars, painting individuals with broad swaths of ignorance about brand loyalty and of course the inevitable petty bickering and challenges. This post has lived up to its title and forum members have met its expectations. Well done, now let's move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #134 Posted July 28, 2009 Dude - buy an EP1. Plus - this is a totally unfounded myth that only old guys want to manually control their cameras. Where are you getting this information? I'm amazed at the comprehensive market research you are doing in your spare time Frank. /QUOTE] I speak to people as it seems others on this thread do, and frankly everyone I know recognises the Leica brand but sees it as an old fashioned camera that is difficult to use. This is not comprehensive research at all and in fact I noted that this is something that Leica management need to understand and do the research. When i bought my M8 camera last month I did not even have a questionnaire to fill in about my buying decisions., and other cameras that I considered.....crazy! If only Leica would actually employ you as CEO, you'd put the company to rights in no time eh? Either that, or put them out of business in the twinkle of an eye.. I think the point is that there are difficult times ahead for Leica management, I can only agree. They are indeed in that difficult space of "putting them right" or "putting them out of business" ...this is dejavu of course for Leica, Business is indeed tough: PS: Crikey - if I were Stefan Daniel I would personally come round to your house and take back your M8 for spreading stuff like that. Please point me to where Stefan Daniel has said that the rangefinder is going to be replaced with an EVF with all this bs displayed in it. Frank - tut tut for making stuff up. Stefan told the Forum at the recent Solms factory visit that EVF was the technology fo the future to replace SLR, and would enable a solution for "R" lens users. He told me after the event when I phoned him the same thing and he indicated that the Leica mid price camera (M or whatever) did need a Macro and Telephoto capability and that this was very much in their thoughts and planning. He did NOT say that a M9 camera would drop the optical viewfinder and rangefinder and nor would I expect him to. He was bullish about what technology increasing can do to replace a mirror housing and he sees a chance to exploit the new technologies....My point is that although it would be a tough decision, maybe the M10 could be a vehicle to do that leap of faith. I am being very factual and asking tough questions that you cannot or do not want to answer! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #135 Posted July 28, 2009 He did NOT say that a M9 camera would drop the optical viewfinder and rangefinder and nor would I expect him to. ! Originally Posted by frankowen@wanadoo.fr > Display replaced with a high quality LCD display in a viewfinder with a next generation focussing technology integrated to the display and the lens (I understand that Stefan hinted that this was where they were going). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 28, 2009 Share #136 Posted July 28, 2009 Let's rename this post to "Camera Fight At The Leica Corral." :eek: Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted July 28, 2009 Share #137 Posted July 28, 2009 [/i] If you are trying to suggest an inconsistency here you are wrong. > One is what Stefan stated which i guess you agree with because you were in Solms. > The other is my own suggestion about what they might wish to do for the M10 that echoes what has been said elsewhere in this thread as to a perceived market need to show more data in a viewfinder plus reduce size, plus address AE, and AF lenses ...all of which suggest a move towards a EVF display or do you disagree? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 28, 2009 Share #138 Posted July 28, 2009 All you had to do was hit the links .............. and you will see that I only responded to the previous post in reference to taking photos and cameras,..............relax don't get your knickers in a knot third man Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 28, 2009 Share #139 Posted July 28, 2009 If you are trying to suggest an inconsistency here you are wrong. > One is what Stefan stated which i guess you agree with because you were in Solms. > The other is my own suggestion about what they might wish to do for the M10 that echoes what has been said elsewhere in this thread as to a perceived market need to show more data in a viewfinder plus reduce size, plus address AE, and AF lenses ...all of which suggest a move towards a EVF display or do you disagree? M10??? Crap, and I had just saved up for the M9. Maybe I'll wait for the M11 and put my M9 money into my Porsche. Of course there's that Rolex at the pawn shop I've been eyeing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2009 Share #140 Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) If you are trying to suggest an inconsistency here you are wrong. > One is what Stefan stated which i guess you agree with because you were in Solms. > The other is my own suggestion about what they might wish to do for the M10 that echoes what has been said elsewhere in this thread as to a perceived market need to show more data in a viewfinder plus reduce size, plus address AE, and AF lenses ...all of which suggest a move towards a EVF display or do you disagree? I disagree. The collective product philosophy in Solms regarding the M series, of which Mr. Daniel is the spokesman, is that this is a rangefinder camera with an optical viewfinder. No mention or suggestion has ever been made, (outside some of the wilder threads in this forum) of: 1. Autofocus 2. EVF 3. Extra complications our automation. Quite on the contrary, I have been told that Leica recognizes that the current rangefinder can only just handle the required accuracy on the M8, but they are satisfied with the level currenly obtained Tests (!) on full-frame M cameras have proved that the accuracy is ample for a larger sensor, which is less demanding in that respect. The M9 will unequivocally have an opto/mechanical rangefinder-viewfinder system. Edited July 28, 2009 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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