M8 Competition?

[wilfredo]

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Wilfredo, ¿has visto el follón que has montado? Pero, tío, ¿cómo se te occurre decir cosas así... aquí? Hereje, que eres un hereje... ya te lo decía yo...

 

:D

 

Hereje y apostata, pero bueno, por lo visto los objetivos M se pueden utilizar con este nuevo invento de la Olympus.

[wilfredo]

How are these images different/better than any other professionally produced 4/3 image?

 

 

I'm not saying they are different or better, but that they are very good, not bad at all. I could live with this kind of quality.

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[wilfredo]

Yes, indeed, as others have already illustrated.

 

 

Ken,

 

Have you used yours with the m4/3 adaptor? Any thoughts? Hard to focus?

[TEBnewyork]

In what situation? Are you telling me that you hold a camera at arms length manually focusing a lens off the LCD through your sunglasses out in the sun? Fabulous if you tell me you can. Are you very fast on the M8? Why arent you accurate on the M8?

 

First, wide open at f1.4 trying to totally nail focus on an M8 no I am not that fast. But wide open close focus when I get home and look on a big monitor I get more shots that I don't like than I care to. Is that an issue with everyone, potentially not. Stopped down, yes, I can be very accurate on an M8 and have many beautiful shots.

 

So, there are two m4/3 cameras that can handle the lenses. The G1 has an evf and the E-P1 doesn't. So far in using the E-P1 I don't hold my arms way out like a tourist using a p&s camera. Rather my arms are in close. The LCD viewing angle is very good.

 

What I do think is funny (and what I wrote in a previous post) is all of the things you read about being on the street and pre-focusing or using hyperfocal - why doesn't that go out the window without a viewfinder?

 

My reason for posting on this thread is NOT to say that the E-P1 is an M8 killer but to discuss the fact that there are viable alternate uses for M lenses and the new developments in technology are exciting. What bothers me is that people here are so smug that only an M8 is a legitimate camera for an M lens.

[rob_x2004]

TEB, I am interested on your experiences.

This is the sort of thing I find problematic.

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Image resampled from Wilfredos links somewhere

I find working from an LCD in the open light, that it is struggle enough to recognise much more than shapes and contrasts for compositional arrangements. Sat inside in a stable and evenly lit environment might be something else. Focusing, and tracking focus in manual from only LCD AF confirmation seems likely to be a bit of a fetch to me. I dont care about zone focusing. You can do that more accurately in AF flick manual. That is why I cant see why you wouldnt stay in system? Surely the Olympus lenses are ok? I am mot sure any 3/4 sensor adequately "handles" the M ASPH lenses in anything other than resolution. Are you finding the images reflect more the character of the 3/4 sensor or the lens? If so have you found the M lenses on 4/3 to be so staggeringly better than the matched lenses to make them worth the inconveniences? More images you post the better I reckon.

[ken_tanaka]

Ken,

 

Have you used yours with the m4/3 adaptor? Any thoughts? Hard to focus?

 

No, I do not yet have the adapter. (I just ordered the Voigtlander adapter from Stephen Gandy this weekend.)

 

I am in philosophical agreement with "TEBnewyork" when she writes, "My reason for posting on this thread is NOT to say that the E-P1 is an M8 killer but to discuss the fact that there are viable alternate uses for M lenses and the new developments in technology are exciting."

 

Whether or not the E-P1's MFT sensor is the equivalent, or the approximate, of the M8's is a distant point. The E-P1 represents a relatively affordable platform for exploring the possibilities of photography in flexible terms. It's a far more flexible camera than any M (writing as a long-time M shooter and owner of several bodies) and features an in-hand design that's really very pleasant. It's a product clearly designed to put fun back into photography by opening technical possibilities and by inviting exploration with a physical design that harkens back to a more optimistic and less cynically snotty age.

 

Leica purists will predictably scowl at the Olympus PEN E-P1 citing all manners of reasons why it must be inferior to the M8. (Leica purists spend a lot of time scowling anyway.) That's fine, since I don't think that this relatively small group represents Oly's target audience for the E-P1.

 

Rather, I believe that Oly's target market is the curious, inquisitive photographer who wants a platform for experimentation but doesn't want to mortgage the house to do so. Someone who is eager to step beyond the boundaries of fixed lens p&s cameras but doesn't want to buy into a big dslr system.

 

The eventual development of the M8 was an exciting development for which I am very grateful. But it was anything but innovative as a new product. By contrast, Oly's E-P1 is quite exciting and innovative in a back-to-the-future way. Very, very few E-P1 owners will be old enough to have ever touched the original PEN camera. But that's why it's been so much fun to watch people begin to have fund using its new grandchild.

 

Now, with F&H officially dead, it's time to develop a TLR with a square format digital back...a digital Rolleiflex!

Edited July 5, 2009 by ken_tanaka
Gender correction.

[TEBnewyork]

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TEB, I am interested on your experiences.

This is the sort of thing I find problematic.

[ATTACH]150686[/ATTACH]

Image resampled from Wilfredos links somewhere

I find working from an LCD in the open light, that it is struggle enough to recognise much more than shapes and contrasts for compositional arrangements. Sat inside in a stable and evenly lit environment might be something else. Focusing, and tracking focus in manual from only LCD AF confirmation seems likely to be a bit of a fetch to me. I dont care about zone focusing. You can do that more accurately in AF flick manual. That is why I cant see why you wouldnt stay in system? Surely the Olympus lenses are ok? I am mot sure any 3/4 sensor adequately "handles" the M ASPH lenses in anything other than resolution. Are you finding the images reflect more the character of the 3/4 sensor or the lens? If so have you found the M lenses on 4/3 to be so staggeringly better than the matched lenses to make them worth the inconveniences? More images you post the better I reckon.

 

I guess I have two thoughts about that shot. 1) if the person is holding the camera up like that, I wouldn't be able with an M8 to get a shot at the camera angle that he is looking to use because I would have to have the camera at eye level to see what I was doing with the M8 and 2) I would not get a camera like this and use only M lenses. However, I do think it is a format that would be worth a look from Leica.

 

There are no really fast micro 4/3's for the moment. The fastest dedicated lens is the 17mm f2.8 pancake. Next prime coming is a 20mm f1.7 coming this fall. For 4/3's and adapted to micro 4/3's I have a 25mm lux. (double all focal lengths that I've mentioned). That is why using my 50 lux is interesting to me for portraits.

 

I've only had the oly for a few days so I can't make a lot of comments about sensor vs. lens. But on my first day, I put my 50 pre-asph lux on the camera and went outside at midday and see what I could do with very quick focus.

 

Here was my first shot (which is a throwaway was just seeing if I could quickly focus - which I could in the sun). I think it picks up the character of the lens:

 

jpeg straight from camera- waiting for C1/Lghtroom RAW support

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/3/7/_7020177.jpg

 

I took some others that I will have to load up to host (none are more than test shots) if you want them.

Edited July 5, 2009 by TEBnewyork

[TEBnewyork]

No, I do not yet have the adapter. (I just ordered the Voigtlander adapter from Stephen Gandy this weekend.)

 

I am in philosophical agreement with "TEBnewyork" when he writes, "My reason for posting on this thread is NOT to say that the E-P1 is an M8 killer but to discuss the fact that there are viable alternate uses for M lenses and the new developments in technology are exciting."

 

Whether or not the E-P1's MFT sensor is the equivalent, or the approximate, of the M8's is a distant point. The E-P1 represents a relatively affordable platform for exploring the possibilities of photography in flexible terms. It's a far more flexible camera than any M (writing as a long-time M shooter and owner of several bodies) and features an in-hand design that's really very pleasant. It's a product clearly designed to put fun back into photography by opening technical possibilities and by inviting exploration with a physical design that harkens back to a more optimistic and less cynically snotty age.

 

Leica purists will predictably scowl at the Olympus PEN E-P1 citing all manners of reasons why it must be inferior to the M8. (Leica purists spend a lot of time scowling anyway.) That's fine, since I don't think that this relatively small group represents Oly's target audience for the E-P1.

 

Rather, I believe that Oly's target market is the curious, inquisitive photographer who wants a platform for experimentation but doesn't want to mortgage the house to do so. Someone who is eager to step beyond the boundaries of fixed lens p&s cameras but doesn't want to buy into a big dslr system.

 

The eventual development of the M8 was an exciting development for which I am very grateful. But it was anything but innovative as a new product. By contrast, Oly's E-P1 is quite exciting and innovative in a back-to-the-future way. Very, very few E-P1 owners will be old enough to have ever touched the original PEN camera. But that's why it's been so much fun to watch people begin to have fund using its new grandchild.

 

Now, with F&H officially dead, it's time to develop a TLR with a square format digital back...a digital Rolleiflex!

 

Well said.

Small point .... I'm a she

 

terry

[ken_tanaka]

Well said.

Small point .... I'm a she

 

terry

 

My apologies, Terry. I've corrected my post.

[rob_x2004]

Thanks for that. Will keep my eyes peeled. Guess I should find the olympus forum too.

Edited July 5, 2009 by rob_x2004

[TEBnewyork]

Thanks for that. Will keep my eyes peeled. Guess I should find the olympus forum too.

 

You will recognize some folks on this thread

 

Having fun with the E-P1 - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

[Guest malland]

...I find working from an LCD in the open light, that it is struggle enough to recognise much more than shapes and contrasts for compositional arrangements. Sat inside in a stable and evenly lit environment might be something else. Focusing, and tracking focus in manual from only LCD AF confirmation seems likely to be a bit of a fetch to me. I dont care about zone focusing. You can do that more accurately in AF flick manual. That is why I cant see why you wouldnt stay in system? Surely the Olympus lenses are ok?...

My experience with using the LCD on small sensor cameras is quite different, as I only use the LCD for roughly establishing the edges of the frame and looking directly at the subject when pressing the shutter — a method that I value for street photography because it facilitates a loose and fluid shooting style. Moreover, for small sensor cameras with their huge DOF zone focusing is not an issue. But people have used zone focusing with Leica-M cameras for decades, so this should not be an issue.

 

My feeling is that the new Olympus camera needs to be approached with an open mind both is terms of the lack of viewfinder and the quality of available lenses. In any case the overwhelming sales proportion will not, in any case, be from Leica-M users.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Wild Beasts of Botswana

[wilfredo]

Hi Wilfredo

 

Take a look at this post over on theonlinephotographer. People are already using M-mount lenses on the EP1, although I haven't seen so many example images yet.

 

I agree that this is more of a complement than a threat to the M8. However, I don't understand Leica's unwillingness to embrace the m4/3 idea with a lower-cost digital CL: they've stated explicitly that they're not interested, and this may be due to their lack of success with the Digilux3, but they're in danger of missing yet another promising boat imho. Others may step into what could otherwise be a nice revenue stream for the company.

 

Mani

 

PS: just found this example shot using the EP1 and Nokton 1.1.

 

Thanks!

[wilfredo]

For those wo made the purchase of the Olympus Pen, please keep us posted and share shots using the M mount lenses. I think we can all benefit from your experience and learning about potential kinks. It seems this camera is flying off the shelves, but I'm sure it comes with some nagging kinks to be worked out.

[stunsworth]

Mark Norton's use of M lenses on the Panasonic micro 4/3 camera indicated that while they worked, it wasn't a high quality solution. I don't expect the Olympus to be any different.

[wilfredo]

Mark Norton's use of M lenses on the Panasonic micro 4/3 camera indicated that while they worked, it wasn't a high quality solution. I don't expect the Olympus to be any different.

 

 

That may be the case, but it is good to know that our Leica M glass can be used on more than just M cameras.

[marknorton]

Mark Norton's use of M lenses on the Panasonic micro 4/3 camera indicated that while they worked, it wasn't a high quality solution. I don't expect the Olympus to be any different.

 

No, I think it was Sean Reid who first showed the problems of using lenses like the 28mm Summicron with the Panasonic G1. I've more or less given up with the G1 and Leica M lenses because of the crop factor and the need to use short focal length lenses which the sensor then doesn't handle very well.

 

I still like the G1 operating model - viewfinder or optional Live View with a convenient articulating screen - and I think it could point to the way to a future M camera which provides the optical viewfinder we think essential alongside an optional Live View mode.

 

As for the Olympus, I agree with Steve that the sensor is unlikely to be optimised for M lenses.

[plasticman]

Here was my first shot (which is a throwaway was just seeing if I could quickly focus - which I could in the sun). I think it picks up the character of the lens:

jpeg straight from camera- waiting for C1/Lghtroom RAW support

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/3/7/_7020177.jpg

 

Hi Terry - I like that shot for some reason - there's a soft watercolor effect to the oof areas that is really nice.

I'm also impressed by the way the sensor seems to handle bright sun and shadow - one of the weaknesses of the M8 imho, and more problematic in the way that highlights clip suddenly than the much-discussed high-ISO noise (that affects fewer of my shots, at least).

 

Keep us posted! I might consider one of these when Olympus release a version with some kind of viewfinder.

 

Mani

[jonoslack]

In what situation? Are you telling me that you hold a camera at arms length manually focusing a lens off the LCD through your sunglasses out in the sun? Fabulous if you tell me you can. Are you very fast on the M8? Why arent you accurate on the M8?

 

Well, Terry has one, and has owned M8's, you are just saying . . .

I also have one, I also have 2 M8's, and I'll also subscribe to the view that it's easy to focus M lenses on it - added to which, the 170 degree viewing angle on the LCD means you can do it whilst holding the camera very low, or on a table.

Added to which - if you're shooting in the street with a hyperfocal distance set, then the extra depth of field provided by the smaller sensor together with the fact that you can see the lcd for framing (even in bright sunlight and when held at waist level pointing forwards), makes it an interesting tool - and 3200 ISO shots are extremely useable, especially in black and white.

 

Is the IQ as good as an M8? of course not, and nor is the build quality or handling.

 

But the IQ is good - as is the build quality and the handling, and of course, the price is excellent. Sticking the 75 'cron on the front makes a very small,acceptable and focusable 150mm f2 - if you add image stabilisation and good high ISO together with a little more depth of of field . . . If you never wanted a tiny fast 150mm . . . well, pretty useless, but it's kind of fun.

 

Writing it off without even having tried it seems a little . . . . erm intemperate? . . . Sorry - missed your later posts - still, I think mine is relevant

Edited July 6, 2009 by jonoslack
adding on the basis of reading more

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Look here: Leica M

[Shootist]

Ok I'm almost sold. But the one question that I need to ask from those that have either the Pana m4/3 or the Olympus Pen is which m4/3 to M adapter is best.

 

There is one from CV and I think John Milich (JLM??? on this forum) is making one and I think there is one from Novaflex(?).

Which one is recommended?