Is Leica company reliable now and for future?

[Guest BigSplash]

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Since first time I have seen Leica, I was in love with it. And I was 16. Today, after 30 years I own M8, R9, Digilux 2, Digilux 3, C-Lux 3 and many lenses and accessories.

 

What I loved with Leica was its quality, consistency and reliability! The possibility to extend my cameras with additional lenses and accessories. I always new that this company will come out with something extremely good which enriches my love for photography for another period of life.

 

What I experience in the last period, and I am sure, it is not only me, is that Leica as a company starts to be not reliable. It is losing consistency which most probably is a lack of long term strategy. It focuses on what innovation it could offer to the market. And this is not bad.

 

The bad thing is that Leica forgets about its promises they made when they have produced the products which exist in its portfolio.

 

For example: Digilux 3. I still have brochures with the stories about the development of four thirds standard, extension of the range, lenses, updates, upgrades etc.etc. It was promised like Digilux would be bought accidentally and not by a real Leica fan. And where are we with Digilux 3 today? What did Leica deliver vs. promises given? I do not want to debate about the digital R10.

 

But what about M8?

Recently we found out that there will be no upgrades as it jeopardize the sale of 8.2. I cannot imagine that this was decided at Leica company. Like they did not know that before?! And what about the M8 owners? Are they anyhow respected and why are they ignored in the whole story? It is unbelievable what kind of decisions is made in this company. Instead of treating us with care, Leica decided to start losing already a very low % of its targeted market. I am afraid that this should not happen with any company with such a distinctive product portfolio.

 

M8.2

Why would I buy M8.2 if I bought M8 just few month before 8.2 was released or why would I buy M9 if I know that Leica will launch M9.2 few months after that. To whom is Leica competing in this market. To its users, I am afraid. Otherwise it would give us their medium and long term plans regarding future development or at least it would draft them.

 

I am, at least, disappointed or as other would say, too emotional. Do not misunderstand me as my aim is not to save money. I am rather looking for strong Leica with clear product and customer strategy.

 

I do not think that I am asking too much. Am I?

 

 

I share your view completely. I too have had a long love affair with Leica , since I was five years old for the following reasons:

> Quality of Camera build...it is excellent

> Excellence of Leica Optics ...so much better that the Japanese then and now

> Commitment of Leitz to a continuous evolution of the Leica system, allowing backward compatibility as far as possible....This is now history and is no longer true.

> Flexibility as a full system camera (Visoflex etc) while serving as a small travel friendly unit as a basic "M"...This is no longer true.

 

Today I feel as apparently you do that Solms seem to be in the mode of:

> Ditching "R" lens family and "R10" with no clarity as to the way forward

> Being unclear about M8, M8.2....towards M8.3, and the M9 evolution

> Introducing I understand (latest press releases in USA) a strategy that suggests "M" lenses will have adapters for Olympus, Nikon, Canon .....very strange, so much so that even my retailer who told me about this is unclear about what is the Solms strategy in this respect!?

> None availablity of Visoflex, Bellows, Telyt lenses etc....so the "M" is no longer a system camera that appeals to the amateur market

> None availability of leather cases like used to be on offer from Leitz....no system cases, no hard ever ready cases,

> Positioning the future revenue drivers towards "M" (I think?) plus "S" range (Is this really a Hasselblad killer?) plus the volume market with Digilux (JV with Panasonic who build the cameras).

 

In my view all of this is a great shame and I sincerely hope that the executive management start driving clarity into their strategy and communicate this to their dealers, while getting their buy in. My dealer for example no longer wishes to invest in making his store into a Leica boutique because he is concerned by the ever changing directions at Leica and he is genuinely worried for the brand's future.

 

The Leica M8 is fabulous as is the M analogue cameras and their lenses. The new lenses are really superb and I may get a few but the strategy that Leica is following is a concern in my view for we owners and users plus I suspect commercially for Solms. I hope I am wrong

[stunsworth]

I> Introducing I understand (latest press releases in USA) a strategy that suggests "M" lenses will have adapters for Olympus, Nikon, Canon .....very strange

 

Very strange indeed given that M lenses can't work on Nikon or Canon cameras. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what was said - do you have a link to the US press release?

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[Guest BigSplash]

Very strange indeed given that M lenses can't work on Nikon or Canon cameras. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what was said - do you have a link to the US press release?

No I do not have the press release but the dealer did I believe refer to M lenses and maybe I was confused re Nikon & Canon...He was angry that Leica seemed to be supportve of the new Olympus rangefinder camera via the press release for the adapter, and then mentioned that this has been the Solms approach for the "R" series lenses.

 

I guess that the really difficult thing for me to understand is why Leica does not simply say that they are going to be like Zeiss and make lenses for Nikon and / or Canon if they feel unable at this time to realise an SLR body.

 

Separately they make the "M" series rangefinder camera but as I have said a few times they need to offer this as the current core product with a range of lenses plus a way to offer macro and telephoto for the amateur user. (ie a System offering)

[barjohn]

It certainly is not encouraging that nearly a quarter after their fiscal year end they still have not published their annual statement. It is already one month after they published it last year. When companies start delaying or hiding their financial health it is not a good sign for their future longevity.

[sdai]

If I remember correctly German companies have one full calendar year to prepare their annual reports for the last fiscal year counting from its end date.

 

It's all about numbers anyways .... who are the people/organization holding the remaining 3.5% Leica shares?

[hoppyman]

Frank, to provide responses to just a couple of your points there, I've snipped your post.

Stefan Daniel explicitly said (at the Forum dinner)

There will be no new versions of the M8. So there will not be an M8.3 or .4 or whatever.

They are closer to an M9 but not yet able to announce dates,

I don't know about press releases that you have mentioned, but Stefan also said that patents for lens mounts have only been exchanged between Japanese manufacturers.

Leica has not been successful in obtaining permission so far, so cannot make lenses to fit Canon or Nikon for example.

Leica clearly is part of the four thirds standard or at least was? Their own M mount patent is presumably expired and in any case is entirely mechanical. Other companies make cameras, lenses and adaptors with that mount as is well known. That is very different to producing lenses that have the electrical interfaces, functions, AF motors, VR etc etc of modern dSLRs for example.

 

 

......Today I feel as apparently you do that Solms seem to be in the mode of:

> Ditching "R" lens family and "R10" with no clarity as to the way forward

> Being unclear about M8, M8.2....towards M8.3, and the M9 evolution

> Introducing I understand (latest press releases in USA) a strategy that suggests "M" lenses will have adapters for Olympus, Nikon, Canon .....very strange, so much so that even my retailer who told me about this is unclear about what is the Solms strategy in this respect!?

.............

[glenerrolrd]

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I follow Jaap's direction and can also not understand what you are complaining about.

 

Regards

Steve

 

You have a short memory or maybe misunderstood the poster.

 

1. When the M8.2 was introduced Leica also introduced an upgrade program. This was promoted as providing "value" to the customer . Your M8 investment will not become obsolete..because you can upgrade the body . This was true for the M8 and I use a M8 with the upgrades with my M8.2 and see no differences in practical use.

 

This program had an advantage of opening up a new source of revenue thru Leica s service organization.....but at the expense of the dealers. The customer won at least short term because an upgrade cost in the US $1700 and a trade in was closer to $3000.

 

Now the program has been scrapped ...and maybe it needed to be ...but the reason stated was because the dealers were unhappy .

 

Its not hard to see the underlying strategy.....new cash source ...more happy M8 users positioned for the M9.....but now its new models that will destroy the value of the M8 s further. You can say "so what same as N/C/S " but thats different than what was promised.

 

2. Three years ago there was a "R" project underway in Solms . "There will be a FF R solution" . Yet someone decided to pull all the resources to concentrate on the new "S" model . Then the "R" will be shortly after the "S" and will leverage the R&D budget. That was only last October? Now we realize we can not compete in the DSLR space but we will have an "adequate solution".

 

Some of the above can be explained by the changes in the world economy......or we can always pin it on the long gone CEOs ......but there has not been much consistency and follow through for a few years.

 

Most on this forum know these issues ....but really are you saying the poster has no business questioning "if you can rely on Leica in the future".

 

Roger

[hoppyman]

Roger the current upgrade system has not been scrapped. My camera was upgraded only a couple of weeks ago. What Stefan said was that there will be no new versions of the M8 and no NEW upgrades developed. The current upgrades are still available. In fact, as an overseas visitor, I has extremely pleased when Leica upgraded my M8 for collection the next business day. They also volunteered to check the critical focus of my fast lenses for me on the spot when I collected my (reassembled) camera.

 

The M8 continues in production and has stayed there for longer than any dSLR.

The M8.2 offers a little more development for a higher price or you can still get the current listed upgrades.

 

There are no new models "that will destroy the value of the M8 s further." Leica is working on developing an M9 as is known. If and when it gets to market it will likely be quite different to the M8's. What is it that you want Leica to do? You are evidently unhappy that Leica will not offer new versions of the M8. Then you are evidently unhappy that there may eventually be an M9 as well.

You have a short memory or maybe misunderstood the poster.

 

1. When the M8.2 was introduced Leica also introduced an upgrade program. This was promoted as providing "value" to the customer . Your M8 investment will not become obsolete..because you can upgrade the body . This was true for the M8 and I use a M8 with the upgrades with my M8.2 and see no differences in practical use.

 

This program had an advantage of opening up a new source of revenue thru Leica s service organization.....but at the expense of the dealers. The customer won at least short term because an upgrade cost in the US $1700 and a trade in was closer to $3000.

 

Now the program has been scrapped ...and maybe it needed to be ...but the reason stated was because the dealers were unhappy .

 

Its not hard to see the underlying strategy.....new cash source ...more happy M8 users positioned for the M9.....but now its new models that will destroy the value of the M8 s further. You can say "so what same as N/C/S " but thats different than what was promised.

 

2. Three years ago there was a "R" project underway in Solms . "There will be a FF R solution" . Yet someone decided to pull all the resources to concentrate on the new "S" model . Then the "R" will be shortly after the "S" and will leverage the R&D budget. That was only last October? Now we realize we can not compete in the DSLR space but we will have an "adequate solution".

 

Some of the above can be explained by the changes in the world economy......or we can always pin it on the long gone CEOs ......but there has not been much consistency and follow through for a few years.

 

Most on this forum know these issues ....but really are you saying the poster has no business questioning "if you can rely on Leica in the future".

 

Roger

[glenerrolrd]

Roger the current upgrade system has not been scrapped. My camera was upgraded only a couple of weeks ago. What Stefan said was that there will be no new versions of the M8 and no NEW upgrades developed. The current upgrades are still available. In fact, as an overseas visitor, I has extremely pleased when Leica upgraded my M8 for collection the next business day. They also volunteered to check the critical focus of my fast lenses for me on the spot when I collected my (reassembled) camera.

 

The M8 continues in production and has stayed there for longer than any dSLR.

The M8.2 offers a little more development for a higher price or you can still get the current listed upgrades.

 

There are no new models "that will destroy the value of the M8 s further." Leica is working on developing an M9 as is known. If and when it gets to market it will likely be quite different to the M8's. What is it that you want Leica to do? You are evidently unhappy that Leica will not offer new versions of the M8. Then you are evidently unhappy that there may eventually be an M9 as well.

 

Geoff

 

 

What I am unhappy about is the way the original poster was treated . He asked a fair question and immediately he has numerous posts questioning his logic. Statements like "I don t see what your problem is" or "evidently you have a problem" seem unfair and unnecessary. If you have a different POV or new thoughts to add post them.

 

Since you have taken exception to my statements ..I will attempt to clarify them.

 

Leica announced that the M8 would be an upgradable camera and implied that it would not follow the pattern of continuous obsolescence found in N/C/S. The whole idea of the upgrade program was to provide the consumer will a longer product life cycle and better retained value. I think the M8 upgrade program is an excellent service ....a "win win" for Leica and the customer.

 

This program ,however, will not be extended beyond what is currently offered . If Leica chooses to offer an M8.3 (which they say is possible should the M9 be delayed )....no upgrade program will be made available. I feel the comment about the "dealers not liking the upgrade program "because it cut into new camera sales pretty well sums up Leica s position.

 

So now the whole idea of an upgradable platform has been scrapped. The value of the M8 was supported to some extent by the upgrades but in the future Leica s will be more like N/C/S ..where the introduction of new technology destroys the market value of older cameras.

 

The above is a major change in what Leica had promised when the upgrade program was originally offered . Their statements about the "dealers not liking the program" came across to me as some disregard for the consumers ......they believed the upgrade program would continue into future models and in some small way protect their investments or allow them to obtain improvements that might otherwise not be affordable.

 

Similar logic for the R discussion..... promises over multiple years ..that will not be delivered on. No future software for the DMR. An "adequate" solution for R lens users.

 

Add in the recent ...what would you call it...termination of the alliance with Phase One. I felt this was important as Phase One maintains "best in class" software which is critical to maintaining IQ on not just the S2 but on the other Leica products. This didn t work out so well with the DMR software when a similar alliance was canceled.

 

As to what I believed , expect or have a problem with.....(1) Never believed leica could maintain an upgradable platform for the M or that it had any chance of including future sensor technology(which they didn t promise but also didn t rule out when asked) . Was disappointed in how Leica chose to describe the program (seemed like they were setting expectations beyond what would be reasonable). Liked the idea that a return of the "signature service" concept would allow you to keep a M8 in top form and that the improvements that improved reliability could be incorporated. (2)Accept the fact that improved technology will cause a rapid depreciation of a camera body s value. Nobody wants an M9 more than me .. I will be at the top of the list for two ..if and when they are announced . If they offer an M8.3 with improved EV(noise) ...I would trade up immediately.

 

But I would like Leica to be around to support the products and to do this they need to show some care in how they treat and communicate with their customers. I don t have unrealistic expectations of what Leica can deliver..especially in this economy. But considering the recent Leica statements ...I am concerned .

 

Your recent experience with customer service sounds great and should be shared to provide a balanced perspective .

 

Th original poster asked "is leica a reliable company now and for the future" . This ,of course, depends heavily on your expectations and perspective on Leica s business prospects. Based on leica s recent statements and the general deterioration of the industry , seems like a fair question.

[Steve Ash]

I am still convinced that Leica is more reliable than other camera suppliers within the common economic boundaries/limitations that apply to any manufacturer.

 

This statement is based on the fact that Leica is - to my limited knowledge - the only supplier that provides services for their long time expired products. This for sure is valid for the M-System but also for the R-system.

 

If you have bought an R-camera from the very start of the system Leica will be happy to provide repair services to you if required.

 

It makes me crazy to think of the many Leica cameras that might collecting dust unrespected by the grandchilds of the owner. They still could be serviced by Leica and provide excellent performance for a lifetime. The lenses could be easly lifted into the digital world by buying a digital M or a scanner if reqested.

 

I think this is very unique and exemplary for Leica's reliability. That is the reason why I think to go for a Leica is a very good investment.

 

Regards

Steve

[hoppyman]

I only have your username so I can't address you properly. Without commenting on any other points in this particular thread, what I did was to state some facts on just some specific points, as I personally understand them. I was present at the dinner. In my experience on this forum and others, communication often becomes muddied or discussion diverted.

 

Obviously I am an enthusiastic supporter of Leica and have had nothing but positive experiences myself. My posts are intended to provide some positive counterpoints, since we most often see negative opinion, sometimes emotive, in the forum.

 

Respectfully I disagree with your assessment of the M8 status, most especially the comment that the value of the M8 will be destroyed by possible future models or current policy. My M8 is simply the only and a very fine vehicle for the best lenses in the world and I enjoy it very much. 8,000 images later, I hope to still enjoy it for years and even should a new model emerge, it will produce the same results. The M8 has already more longevity than any other digital camera I am aware of.

 

I just don't see any issue with Leica acting to survive as a company (and that is what has driven policy) by making business decisions, some that may be unpopular. I see no disloyalty to owners either. Dealer support is equally vital for Leica and we have seen evidence that this relationship was damaged under a previous CEO. Certainly stated policy has changed on the M8 upgrade programme, not to mention the disappointment felt by loyal R lens owners over the the R10. To me you can only accept that Leica is striving their best or, if you are ultimately unhappy, move on. However, no-one's opinion is ever changed against their will. I am the same.

 

We share though, the hope that Leica continues to operate and provide superb products. Support from existing customers will be a vital part of that, in my view.

Geoff

 

 

What I am unhappy about is the way the original poster was treated . He asked a fair question and immediately he has numerous posts questioning his logic. Statements like "I don t see what your problem is" or "evidently you have a problem" seem unfair and unnecessary. If you have a different POV or new thoughts to add post them.

 

Since you have taken exception to my statements ..I will attempt to clarify them.

 

Leica announced that the M8 would be an upgradable camera and implied that it would not follow the pattern of continuous obsolescence found in N/C/S. The whole idea of the upgrade program was to provide the consumer will a longer product life cycle and better retained value. I think the M8 upgrade program is an excellent service ....a "win win" for Leica and the customer.

 

This program ,however, will not be extended beyond what is currently offered . If Leica chooses to offer an M8.3 (which they say is possible should the M9 be delayed )....no upgrade program will be made available. I feel the comment about the "dealers not liking the upgrade program "because it cut into new camera sales pretty well sums up Leica s position.

 

So now the whole idea of an upgradable platform has been scrapped. The value of the M8 was supported to some extent by the upgrades but in the future Leica s will be more like N/C/S ..where the introduction of new technology destroys the market value of older cameras.

 

The above is a major change in what Leica had promised when the upgrade program was originally offered . Their statements about the "dealers not liking the program" came across to me as some disregard for the consumers ......they believed the upgrade program would continue into future models and in some small way protect their investments or allow them to obtain improvements that might otherwise not be affordable.

 

Similar logic for the R discussion..... promises over multiple years ..that will not be delivered on. No future software for the DMR. An "adequate" solution for R lens users.

 

Add in the recent ...what would you call it...termination of the alliance with Phase One. I felt this was important as Phase One maintains "best in class" software which is critical to maintaining IQ on not just the S2 but on the other Leica products. This didn t work out so well with the DMR software when a similar alliance was canceled.

 

As to what I believed , expect or have a problem with.....(1) Never believed leica could maintain an upgradable platform for the M or that it had any chance of including future sensor technology(which they didn t promise but also didn t rule out when asked) . Was disappointed in how Leica chose to describe the program (seemed like they were setting expectations beyond what would be reasonable). Liked the idea that a return of the "signature service" concept would allow you to keep a M8 in top form and that the improvements that improved reliability could be incorporated. (2)Accept the fact that improved technology will cause a rapid depreciation of a camera body s value. Nobody wants an M9 more than me .. I will be at the top of the list for two ..if and when they are announced . If they offer an M8.3 with improved EV(noise) ...I would trade up immediately.

 

But I would like Leica to be around to support the products and to do this they need to show some care in how they treat and communicate with their customers. I don t have unrealistic expectations of what Leica can deliver..especially in this economy. But considering the recent Leica statements ...I am concerned .

 

Your recent experience with customer service sounds great and should be shared to provide a balanced perspective .

 

Th original poster asked "is leica a reliable company now and for the future" . This ,of course, depends heavily on your expectations and perspective on Leica s business prospects. Based on leica s recent statements and the general deterioration of the industry , seems like a fair question.

[delander †]

 

The M8 continues in production and has stayed there for longer than any dSLR.

The M8.2 offers a little more development for a higher price or you can still get the current listed upgrades.

 

 

Geoff I really dont think that is true. The Canon 5D comes to mind, in production for over 3 years.

 

Jeff

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank, to provide responses to just a couple of your points there, I've snipped your post.

Stefan Daniel explicitly said (at the Forum dinner)

There will be no new versions of the M8. So there will not be an M8.3 or .4 or whatever.

They are closer to an M9 but not yet able to announce dates,

I don't know about press releases that you have mentioned, but Stefan also said that patents for lens mounts have only been exchanged between Japanese manufacturers.

Leica has not been successful in obtaining permission so far, so cannot make lenses to fit Canon or Nikon for example.

Leica clearly is part of the four thirds standard or at least was? Their own M mount patent is presumably expired and in any case is entirely mechanical. Other companies make cameras, lenses and adaptors with that mount as is well known. That is very different to producing lenses that have the electrical interfaces, functions, AF motors, VR etc etc of modern dSLRs for example.

 

 

......Today I feel as apparently you do that Solms seem to be in the mode of:

> Ditching "R" lens family and "R10" with no clarity as to the way forward

> Being unclear about M8, M8.2....towards M8.3, and the M9 evolution

> Introducing I understand (latest press releases in USA) a strategy that suggests "M" lenses will have adapters for Olympus, Nikon, Canon .....very strange, so much so that even my retailer who told me about this is unclear about what is the Solms strategy in this respect!?

.............

 

Let me challenge if I may what you are saying:

1 I understood that Leica was going to offer an approach for "R" lens owners....people have speculated that:

a) This maybe a tie up with Canon, Nikon or whoever for a compatible retrofit back......OR

They most likely will introduce a EVF liveview monitor solution.

 

The EVF approach has been critcised on the basis of today's technology as poor for pin prick focussing and framing....in fact I could believe that this maybe the future to replace the mirror of SLR's and would offer a technology driven route for Leica to get after the Japanese competitors.

 

The point is they have not been clear in what they plan and therefore I would believe that new clients may just go with Canon or Nikon if they want Telphoto and Macro capability..

 

2 M8, M8.2 and M9 roadmap.....Well again they are saying on one hand that the spec. of M9 is well advanced as is the design but they cannot give a release date (Commercially I agree with them as to do so would kill new camera sales!) They then say that there will be a M8.3 if the M9 is delayed for too long .......I think that this is unsettling and I would believe that they should say M8 plus M8.2 is available now and they are working on next generation until they are almost ready to release volume production quantities.

 

Actually I think Leica's production release strategy is not good ...

1 They had the well known M8 introduction issues two years ago

2 They now have the Noctilux production issues (ie they could not "apparently until recently" make it!)

3 Too many new items such as the new Noctilux, and latest lenses seem to have nagging issues that users have complained about in this Forum. These range from aperture rings not working and many lenses needing adjustment for the digital era. I guess if I paid £6K for a lens that was not perfect I would be upset.

 

If Leica persists in fueling the debate of M9 (full frame is the expectation) and /or M8.3 why will clients buy into new "M" bodies now? Some dealers are suggesting that M8.2 will be shortly dropped, in favor of a more performant item (M8.3?) others suggest that the M8 will be dropped...so get one now as it is likely to be cheaper than what comes next. Other people say that the M9 will be full frame and will fetch a £6K price tag, plus may take a few years to sort out performance problems and production issues given Leica's past history.

 

To me all this speculation suggests a lack of clarity in the communicated direction from Leica and this is also true of the lenses and accessories. Unfortunately I do not see a coherent message that differentiates what is on offer and is planned that "Truly wets the appetite of new clients"

 

3 I am also confused about the Olympus story for "M" lenses ....

a) I see your point about lens mount patents that are shared between Japanese Mfgs. but noone else. I would have thought that was against EU competition law unless Leica do not wish to pay for liceses that cover software ( ie handshaking between the lens and the body) and the mechanics.

Potentially Leica has positioned itself as worldclass at designing and producing Lenses that fit onto other Mfgs. bodies! This is not necessarily bad but it is I suspect a limiting strategy and they need to command the specifiction at a system level rather than retrofit to other peoples strategy. Leica now has no digital SLR, a very very expensive digital SLR on the horizon and an unlcear roadmap for the "M" series as mentioned above. This is clearly a huge weakness.

c) Finally I would very much like Leica to go back to offering a complete system solution that provides for Macro (with bellows), Fisheye, Telephoto and a range of accessories that compliment the "M" camera

 

Thanks for your feedback.

[hoppyman]

Frank I can only refer you to the summary of Stefan Daniel's speech in German (and the later English translation) provided by Andreas who video recorded the meeting.

Those are the only facts I have heard directly (I was there but had to rely on translation as points were summarised for posting to the Forum).

Any references to an M8.3 or dealers speculating that the M8.2 will be dropped directly contradict my understanding of what Stefan said.

I'm sure that we haven't read the last of speculation on these subjects.

 

 

 

Let me challenge if I may what you are saying:

1 I understood that Leica was going to offer an approach for "R" lens owners....people have speculated that:

a) This maybe a tie up with Canon, Nikon or whoever for a compatible retrofit back......OR

They most likely will introduce a EVF liveview monitor solution.

 

The EVF approach has been critcised on the basis of today's technology as poor for pin prick focussing and framing....in fact I could believe that this maybe the future to replace the mirror of SLR's and would offer a technology driven route for Leica to get after the Japanese competitors.

 

The point is they have not been clear in what they plan and therefore I would believe that new clients may just go with Canon or Nikon if they want Telphoto and Macro capability..

 

2 M8, M8.2 and M9 roadmap.....Well again they are saying on one hand that the spec. of M9 is well advanced as is the design but they cannot give a release date (Commercially I agree with them as to do so would kill new camera sales!) They then say that there will be a M8.3 if the M9 is delayed for too long .......I think that this is unsettling and I would believe that they should say M8 plus M8.2 is available now and they are working on next generation until they are almost ready to release volume production quantities.

 

Actually I think Leica's production release strategy is not good ...

1 They had the well known M8 introduction issues two years ago

2 They now have the Noctilux production issues (ie they could not "apparently until recently" make it!)

3 Too many new items such as the new Noctilux, and latest lenses seem to have nagging issues that users have complained about in this Forum. These range from aperture rings not working and many lenses needing adjustment for the digital era. I guess if I paid £6K for a lens that was not perfect I would be upset.

 

If Leica persists in fueling the debate of M9 (full frame is the expectation) and /or M8.3 why will clients buy into new "M" bodies now? Some dealers are suggesting that M8.2 will be shortly dropped, in favor of a more performant item (M8.3?) others suggest that the M8 will be dropped...so get one now as it is likely to be cheaper than what comes next. Other people say that the M9 will be full frame and will fetch a £6K price tag, plus may take a few years to sort out performance problems and production issues given Leica's past history.

 

To me all this speculation suggests a lack of clarity in the communicated direction from Leica and this is also true of the lenses and accessories. Unfortunately I do not see a coherent message that differentiates what is on offer and is planned that "Truly wets the appetite of new clients"

 

3 I am also confused about the Olympus story for "M" lenses ....

a) I see your point about lens mount patents that are shared between Japanese Mfgs. but noone else. I would have thought that was against EU competition law unless Leica do not wish to pay for liceses that cover software ( ie handshaking between the lens and the body) and the mechanics.

Potentially Leica has positioned itself as worldclass at designing and producing Lenses that fit onto other Mfgs. bodies! This is not necessarily bad but it is I suspect a limiting strategy and they need to command the specifiction at a system level rather than retrofit to other peoples strategy. Leica now has no digital SLR, a very very expensive digital SLR on the horizon and an unlcear roadmap for the "M" series as mentioned above. This is clearly a huge weakness.

c) Finally I would very much like Leica to go back to offering a complete system solution that provides for Macro (with bellows), Fisheye, Telephoto and a range of accessories that compliment the "M" camera

 

Thanks for your feedback.

[spylaw4]

I was there and I concur with Geoff's view and statements of what was said.

[leicajh]

I wish Leica would make an entry level M mount digital. Like an M2. jh