My new defective APO Summicron 75 ASPH...still not up to Leica standards!

[Craftsman]

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I believe neither the SF24D nor the filter are actually manufactured by Leica but just rebranded products. The problems you experienced have no bearing on the current discussion.

If I were to guess the problem, I would look for inadequate training of a new employee who did not learn how the lens should be correctly assembled. It is my experience performing Root Cause investigations that it rarely is neglect by the employee that causes the problem. Of course everyone always blames the employee first and most of the time these problems are not fixed and actually made worse by sanctions against the employee, when the real problem is somewhere in management,-Dick

 

 

It has plenty of bearing on the current discussion. If Leica puts their name on it , it should have the same level of quality control as any of their products.Which looks like very little. Inadequate training by a new employee? The last check before it's put in the box and done by a new employee? Let me see.... the person assembling the lens puts it together wrong so it must be managements fault. May as well have the janitor do the inspections or maybe they're hiring workers layed off by NASA. What school do you Root Cause investagators learn this crap at?

[palaeoboy]

"Since Stefan Daniel personally apologised and offered to make this right in the first instance, may I recommend that you contact him directly now? We can be very sure that he will want to know personally rather than relying on the forum post being noticed."

 

I agree, I think you should take up Stephan's offer to sort this problem out once and for all. Now that its happened twice even more so. This is not a single occurrence but a batch problem. B&H can be forgiven for sending the first one because everyone likes to send new in box items (you can tell if they have been unwrapped) but in this instance they too should have checked the replacement.

 

One of the most irritating lines pointed at other brands ie Voigtlander is when I hear "You get what you pay for in quality control" Sorry but this is really a myth. From my retail experience more Leica products come back as a percentage of items sold than almost any other brand. I learnt early on its due to 2 factors, the hand made nature of the products leads to inconsistencies and also Leica owners are more likely to find fault (and rightly too) due to the greater investment in the brand. Once fixed they are usually gems after that but its something I learnt to accept about the brand and I find it helps me not get too upset when it happens with my own items. In this instance though I think no amount of expectation of problems could have prepared for 2 lenses with the same problem with quality control certificates saying they had been meticulously inspected. I totally sympathise, I would still be insulted by it. But I was reassured by Stephan's response to you which is something you dont often get from management.

 

With regards to mail order items with Leica its just a fact of life these days. Film camera dealers are few and far between on the ground where I live and Leica ones are even rarer. Mail order becomes your only option.

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[leitz_not_leica]

Did you at least try it? If it works OK, why bother? I have several lenses which do not align TDC, but work perfectly. Quit whining, IMHO.

[Wolfgang Esslinger]

From my retail experience more Leica products come back as a percentage of items sold than almost any other brand. I learnt early on its due to 2 factors, the hand made nature of the products leads to inconsistencies and also Leica owners are more likely to find fault (and rightly too) due to the greater investment in the brand. Once fixed they are usually gems after that but its something I learnt to accept about the brand and I find it helps me not get too upset when it happens with my own items.

 

I fully agree. 30 years Minolta (numerous cameras and lenses, MF and AF): 2 products repaired due to extensive use. 3 years Leica: 5 products repaired, some several times (always guarantee). Still, it's more fun to use Leica. But I am not a professional - never would use Leica as a pro if alternatives are available.

[Shootist]

Any update on this thread?

Have you called Leica NJ or Leica AG.

They should send you a NEW lens overnight with a return ticket to get that second new defective lens back.

Oh and they should go over it with a fine eye to make sure it is perfect.

[doubice]

Did you at least try it? If it works OK, why bother? I have several lenses which do not align TDC, but work perfectly. Quit whining, IMHO.

 

This is the silliest comment I have read here for a while. If this was your lens and you just spent around US$2,000 for it, would you live with it? Would you "not bother and not whine"?

 

There is a difference between a minor misalignment at TDC and a more than 45 degree misalignment...... What else is not aligned correctly?

 

Give your head a shake.....

 

Best,

 

Jan

[Shootist]

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This is the silliest comment I have read here for a while. If this was your lens and you just spent around US$2,000 for it, would you live with it? Would you "not bother and not whine"?

 

There is a difference between a minor misalignment at TDC and a more than 45 degree misalignment...... What else is not aligned correctly?

 

Give your head a shake.....

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

Try about 3200+.

I'd be raising holy hell with Leica.

 

Yes that was a very silly comment.

[peter_n]

The OP bought at B&H in NYC and the lens is $3,295.00 there. For $3,295.00 I think I would want the lens to be put together properly.

 

 

 

[budrichard]

"What school do you Root Cause investagators learn this crap at?"

 

First, let me suggest you find some guidance in Conflict Resolution because your skills are zero.

 

Second, I'm trained/certified in Root Cause Investigations and have conducted numerous investigations in the Nuclear Power field.

Now on to basics. Since Leica does not control outside suppliers that provide re-badged products, how do you propose that Leica assure quality with thier own internal programs? Since the quality program of a supplier is seperate from a Leica quality program, how can one affect the other? The best Leica can do is to find another vendor or express its displeasure by economic sanctions.

 

" Let me see.... the person assembling the lens puts it together wrong so it must be managements fault. May as well have the janitor do the inspections or maybe they're hiring workers layed off by NASA."

 

It may surprise you to realise that the person doing the assembly probably has no idea of the function of the lens and what the different parts do and how the lens is used and percieved by the user. The assembler is just someone hired for as low a wage as possible, given training and then sent to work. It's managements responsibilty to ascertain by whatever means they care to take, that BEFORE that person is allowed to produce products that are sent for distribution, that the person is properly trained and that the final product in training is correct assembled. In short it IS the janitor that is doing the inspections. After that, management should periodically verifiy that the product being produced is in fact correct. It apears that Leica management do not do the latter and probabaly didn't do the former.

As to NASA, I fully agree that NASA Quality Control and Root Cause expertise is lacking as witness to the Challenger and Discovery incidents but that is another story!

 

As for "crap", I would suggest that you rephrase your Post and stop being a 'keyboard commando'.-Dick

[ampguy]

Wow, for those kinds of prices, I'd go for the 75/1.4 German summilux.

 

The OP bought at B&H in NYC and the lens is $3,295.00 there. For $3,295.00 I think I would want the lens to be put together properly.

 

 

 

[Craftsman]

"What school do you Root Cause investagators learn this crap at?"

 

First, let me suggest you find some guidance in Conflict Resolution because your skills are zero.

 

Second, I'm trained/certified in Root Cause Investigations and have conducted numerous investigations in the Nuclear Power field.

Now on to basics. Since Leica does not control outside suppliers that provide re-badged products, how do you propose that Leica assure quality with thier own internal programs? Since the quality program of a supplier is seperate from a Leica quality program, how can one affect the other? The best Leica can do is to find another vendor or express its displeasure by economic sanctions.

 

" Let me see.... the person assembling the lens puts it together wrong so it must be managements fault. May as well have the janitor do the inspections or maybe they're hiring workers layed off by NASA."

 

It may surprise you to realise that the person doing the assembly probably has no idea of the function of the lens and what the different parts do and how the lens is used and percieved by the user. The assembler is just someone hired for as low a wage as possible, given training and then sent to work. It's managements responsibilty to ascertain by whatever means they care to take, that BEFORE that person is allowed to produce products that are sent for distribution, that the person is properly trained and that the final product in training is correct assembled. In short it IS the janitor that is doing the inspections. After that, management should periodically verifiy that the product being produced is in fact correct. It apears that Leica management do not do the latter and probabaly didn't do the former.

As to NASA, I fully agree that NASA Quality Control and Root Cause expertise is lacking as witness to the Challenger and Discovery incidents but that is another story!

 

As for "crap", I would suggest that you rephrase your Post and stop being a 'keyboard commando'.-Dick

 

 

You're right my apology, not "crap" but maybe a pseudoscience much like physiology. I would certainly think that even lowly assemblers at Leica know the function of the parts they work on. Yes the bottom line is: Leica management is responsible for every item that leaves the factory. But the individual worker is responsible for their small part of the process. I would imagine that they are well trained or should be.

When Leica subcontracts a product to another vendor.they need to guarantee to themselves and their customers that that product receives the same or better QC checks as their own. Having worked as a consultant to Land Rover North America for a number of years I know that can be done.Sitting in on board meetings you sometimes wonder how some of these people got there. There are people in business that love to analyze a problem to death , make flow charts, and write esoteric reports that are meant to impress and justify their generous salary and there are those that can recognize a problem rather quickly and go about correcting it with little fanfare and surprisingly no formal training in Root Cause Analysis.

[SJP]

I'm trained/certified in Root Cause Investigations and have conducted numerous investigations in the Nuclear Power field.

So is Homer Simpson.

 

I really do not see the point of embellishing points of view with props to enhance credibility. The problem at hand is very simple Leica has managed to produce at least two lenses with insufficient quality control procedures in place. That's all.

 

It all depends on how they deal with it - not that it has happened. Perfection does not exist and would be too expensive.

[leicar888]

Years ago I bought a new 180mm APO-Elmarit-R from an authorized Leica dealer in the U.S. and, upon receiving it, I immediately noticed that the focusing ring scratched the lens' barrel constantly, indicating a gross lack of appropriate lubricant. I returned it to a Leica repairman in the U.S. and he quickly took it apart, properly lubricated it, and Fed-Ex'd it to me immediately. Based on that quality control omission, I carefully check every new Leica lens I buy inasmuch as I can no longer trust their QC at all.

[budrichard]

"So is Homer Simpson."

 

I've never watched Homer Simpson but I'm sure it is a very well done program to learn from.

 

"I really do not see the point of embellishing points of view with props to enhance credibility. "

 

The point is that my 'point of view' is not something I acquired from watching Homer Simpson.

 

"The problem at hand is very simple Leica has managed to produce at least two lenses with insufficient quality control procedures in place. That's all."

 

The problem at hand is not very simple or the original Poster would not have received two lenses with identical defects. In 95% of the time what you see without investigation is actually the top 5% of the iceburg in terms of quality problems, which is why the identical problem with these two lenses is so disturbing and should be very disturbing to Leica management.

 

You can disagree with what I Post but you don't have to ridicule. Unfortuneatly this sort of behavior has become the norm for Internet usage. -Dick

 

I almost forgot!

"There are people in business that love to analyze a problem to death , make flow charts, and write esoteric reports that are meant to impress and justify their generous salary and there are those that can recognize a problem rather quickly and go about correcting it with little fanfare and surprisingly no formal training in Root Cause Analysis."

 

The reason for Root Cause Analysis is not always to find the obvious Root Cause but to make sure that it is indeed the Root Cause and there was not some other factor or factor involved.

A study of the Discovery Root Cause analysis will find that the stated Root Cause was dismissed almost out of hand by Nasa employess and it took a lot of effort to find the time and use of expensive leading edgs of the shuttle in tests to determine that a piece of foam falling off the external fuel tank could indeed damage the leading edge of the wing.

Now I will agree that the resources used to solve a problem should fit the cost or risk of not fixing the problem but here with these lenses, I think a Root Cause analysis will find more than just an employee or training problem. I think the problem(s) are much more pervasive at Leica than anyone knows which is why they are distrurbing to me and other leica users. I know that in the future my purchase of Leica products will be made after very careful consideration of the current state of Leica production.EOT-Dick

[wizard]

Yes that was a very silly comment.

 

Ahh, you and Jan should not be so harsh. While I wouldn't live with a lens like this either, I am pretty sure that the optical performance of both lenses will be flawless. And it is this fine distinction the 'silly comment' was pointing to. Many posts here make you believe the lens is best thrown into the nearest garbage box, while in fact it will most likely deliver images of stunning quality. What we have here is a simple alignment problem, no more, and it can be fixed relatively easy.

 

Nevertheless, such misalignment should have been spotted in the factory, no question. Given that there are two lenses (and probably more from the same batch) with the same defect out there, it looks like a systematical error in assembly to me, which apparently went by unnoticed.

 

I have had a brand new Pentax ME fail within the first four weeks, so it does happen with other brands, too.

 

Andy

[budrichard]

"so it does happen with other brands, too."

 

I digress. There are perceptiosn associated with certain Brands that sometimes are fostered by the Brand maker and sometimes not. Leica has the perception of quality both from an optical/mechanical standpoint and service or did.

I am perceiving other brands that were based on quality, continuing to trade on that perception while actually not concerning themselves with quality but just the bottom line.

One brand that I am currently having a problem with is Volvo, Our first went 287K miles before frame cracks rendered it unsafe recently. Our 99XC has 120K miles and is going strong but our 2003XC at 83K miles is in the shop for major mechanical repairs for the tune of at least $4K. I had purchased a Volvo extended warranty with the vehicle for an extra $2k, so I will only be out the $200 deductable but my point is that this appears to the norm with Volvo's of that era and later. It does appear that Volvo like leica has traded on the Brand perception for the bottom line. I just purchased with my son a Honda Civic, a Volvo S40 was not even on the radar. I will probably not purchase another Volvo product and from what i am reading about Leica Quality, I may not purchase another body or lens.-Dick

[wizard]

Dick, I am with you and already said it should not have happened. But I do believe one has to distinguish between what is an inherently bad design (as e.g. a car that breaks down prematurely and requires significant money to be repaired) and simple manufacturing errors that will be rectified at no cost to the client and sometimes, as in the case discussed here, do not even render the product inoperable.

 

As an aside, don't bet on your son's Honda covering 100k or 200k miles without major repair. Toyota until recently had a bulletproof reputation for quality, and at least here in Europe they now have to deal with an increasing amount of quality issues, while other manufacturers (notably AUDI) have overtaken them in this regard. So you can never be sure.

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[jcraf]

Let's not forget that Leica is seen as an aspirational product, and the one of the pinnacles of optical and photographic equipment quality. It is a Porsche, not a Volvo, nor even an Audi. And that is reflected in the eye-watering prices of Leica items, as it is with Porsche cars.

 

So it is perhaps even more unforgiveable then that these things happen with apparent frequency. I have had a new MP on which the black covering was poorly applied, a misengraved APO Summicron 90mm, and a new M7 with crazy electronics.

 

I've have also owned most Nikon dSLRs up to the current D3, and many Nikkor lenses - and never had a single problem.

 

Now I love Leica as much as the next person, and I still believe in the product, but I do think they may well currently have QC issues.

[Shadow Blaster]

Regarding Nikon quality, one of the reasons that I am now a Leica user (new M7, 50mm Summilux, 24mm Elmar) is that I had a Nikon zoom lens seoarate into two parts as I was using it. No dropping, no abuse; it just came apart. John S.

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[Steve Ash]

It is a Porsche, not a Volvo, nor even an Audi.

 

An Audi is built for sure at much higher standards than a Volvo.

 

Just for clarification

Steve