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Is the M8 really a 'PRO' camera?


efftee

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This tired question is one that is not about the M8 being"pro" but is it better than DSLRs. Each do what they do. What makes the camera a "pro" is whether its in the hands of someone who's getting paid to take pictures.

Why all of these philosophical questions about the M8? Is it pro, one lens or many, rich-mans camera. If you like it shoot with it. If you sleep better with a 5dmkii under your pillow shoot with that. If you can afford both then pick the best tool for the job, that's a real 'pro' solution, knowing what works best and what will give the results that are required.

 

I love this forum and think its one of the best out there, but....

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Chris, without sharing proprietary information, the answer to your question is yes. But only just.

 

As to the original post, with all due respect, this is a question that would only be asked by an amateur. A professional knows what tools he or she needs to do a job and doesn't worry about artificial classifications assigned by camera manufacturers. I've had weather sealed 'professional' 1-series canon cameras die in the rain. And my amateur, non-sealed 5d never let me down.

 

I'm a full time professional photographer and I use M8 cameras for all of my digital work, except for the very rare occasion when I need long glass (180/2.8, 300/2.8) and then I use Nikon. But the Leicas work very well for me, and I do better work with them, so that makes them very 'professional' to me.

 

Leica also offer a professional service, that provides faster repairs, loaners, etc. That alone doesn't make the M8 a pro camera but it is a service that's valuable to a working pro photogapher.

 

So many pros are using holgas these days maybe they should offer a pro service too!

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Leica also offer a professional service, that provides faster repairs, loaners, etc. That alone doesn't make the M8 a pro camera but it is a service that's valuable to a working pro photogapher.

 

In my experience the 'pro' service I've had from Leica has been better than that from the larger dSLR players - by a big margin :).

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In my experience the 'pro' service I've had from Leica has been better than that from the larger dSLR players - by a big margin :).

 

I'll second you on the pro-service - it worked well for me recently when I needed to get a range-finder re-aligned.

 

NOAH - thanks for clarification on acceptability of M8 images with agencies - I think this question was answered some time ago when I think about it... BTW LOVE the images on the new site - an example to us all of committed documentary work. Really hope you're thriving.

 

Best

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As a working pro I have used since digital came on canon 1d mk 1,2,3 Canon 1ds mk 11,111 canon 10 d and 20 d canon 5d and 5d mk11 a leica dlux 3 a leica m8. What I use depends on the job . I certainly do not take a leica to shoot a sports event. I do take a leica for sensitive moments. PS Canons proservice is faster then leicas generally by a week. I seem to get a 2 week turnaround with leica a 1 week by canon . Given the size of the companies I cannot kick about either.

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I've had M8 images accepted by major agencies - its content that matters most when all said and done.

 

Content is the only thing that matters in many cases.If for example I see an important news event eg an incident with a well known person/ a green man stepping from a UFO. I then take a picture with my mobile.That picture could be worth a serious amount of money.It wont be rejected because it was not taken with a proper camera.Picture content sells papers and magazines not the hardware that takes the image.

Brian

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Didn't mean to be despising. Apologies if that's how it came across. Just couldn't see the purpose of the question and can definitely remember a similar thread going on again a couple of weeks ago... Perhaps a quick forum search could have provided efftee with the answers he was looking for;)

 

Sorry if I appear to be beating on a dead dog, but I don't remember reading any thread on this. I have read about the M8 being deemed a professional camera, compared to D3s and such. I have also seen many photos made by M8 and they were not commercial images. In fact, I do not remember reading anything anywhere making a direct connection to an M8 being used in a specific professional setting. I am not a pro but I use an M8. I know some professional photographers and none of them use an M8. So really, is it a professional camera or not? If so, I'd like to hear in what professional capacity are they used?

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Specifications, technical or otherwise, do not make it professional. Just because you are a pro, and use an M8, does not make it a professional camera too. The qualification is simply a matter of whether the M8 can be used profitably in jobs that pay. Perhaps that is an unfair question since it is not the gadget but the photographer who will eventually justify the charges but by and large, do you, would you, use an M8 in your work and find that by its merits qualify it as a pro camera according to the same standards as you would qualify a D3 or 5D MkII?

Why don't you tell us what you believe a professional camera is? What set of features or what type of build quality do you believe constitutes a pro quality camera?

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Either I have got this whole thing all wrong or you guys are all just full of it. I hope it's me since I seem to be the only one singing a different song!

 

Sure, any camera could be used to make an image that someone was willing to pay money for it and technically, considered used in a professional setting. Like a Holga, as some people have mentioned. But would you use a Holga in sports photography? Would you use it in studio shooting watches for a magazine? No? So a Holga may, by accident, not definition, have been used in rare instances in a professional capacity but can you consider that it is, by trade, usable as a professional camera? So along that same line, can an M8 be used consistently well in a professional capacity? If so, please tell me what. I am interested to know.

 

And if that question is dumb because it's been asked before, I apologize but I did not force you to read this or answer my question. And from what I have read, I don't think I got any answer other than more questions, many rhetorical, and didn't serve any purpose other than adding to your seniority by number of post.

 

Sorry.

 

And thank you.

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Either I have got this whole thing all wrong or you guys are all just full of it.

 

And from what I have read, I don't think I got any answer other than more questions, many rhetorical, and didn't serve any purpose other than adding to your seniority by number of post.

 

That's because before we can answer the question we need a definition of what constitutes a professional camera. Is it one that's used by a professional, or are there other qualities it needs to possess?

 

If no one can decide what a professional camera is, then the question can't be answered.

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Either I have got this whole thing all wrong or you guys are all just full of it. I hope it's me since I seem to be the only one singing a different song!

 

Sure, any camera could be used to make an image that someone was willing to pay money for it and technically, considered used in a professional setting. Like a Holga, as some people have mentioned. But would you use a Holga in sports photography? Would you use it in studio shooting watches for a magazine? No? So a Holga may, by accident, not definition, have been used in rare instances in a professional capacity but can you consider that it is, by trade, usable as a professional camera? So along that same line, can an M8 be used consistently well in a professional capacity? If so, please tell me what. I am interested to know.

 

And if that question is dumb because it's been asked before, I apologize but I did not force you to read this or answer my question. And from what I have read, I don't think I got any answer other than more questions, many rhetorical, and didn't serve any purpose other than adding to your seniority by number of post.

 

Sorry.

 

And thank you.

Seems to me efftee it depends on how the photographer wants to use the camera and for what situations a choice that really isn't up to the camera but the photographer. To use your examples yes an M8 could be used in a studio situation to photograph watches and I used to photograph sports events with an M3 when I was a PJ for a local paper in Long Beach. I don't know if Leica has designated the M8 as a "pro" camera but it can definitely be used to achieve professional results. If you're ticked off by the questions being asked of you to define yourself perhaps it's because you came here looking for a confirmation of a supposition you had already decided on.

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The "pro" label depends on professional service to the photographer. This means fast and professional technical service and equipment supply. Leica cameras and lenses aren't and cannot be professional tools if you has to wait weeks for a repair service in Germany (I live in Spain, but what if you lives in California, or Japan, or Australia?), or if your dealer cannot be precise about when he will have a particular piece of equipment ("who knows... one week, two weeks... maybe two months...").

 

This is the key element in the S2 professional system of Leica... it isn't the camera or the lenses, the weather seals or the autofocus thing... it is the professional assistance, fast delivery of equipment (from a filter to a new lens you need now) repairing service, replacing equipment to pros, and so on... An efficient structure of worldwide services is very complex and very expensive to develop... When that is done for the S2 Leica will be able to sell other "pro" products as well, based on the R system, the M system or whatever...

 

At this moment Leica doesn't sell "pro" cameras or lenses... At all. No "pro" can rely on Leica for working tools, except if you are ready to assume high doses of risk...

Edited by rosuna
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Sorry if I appear to be beating on a dead dog, but I don't remember reading any thread on this. I have read about the M8 being deemed a professional camera, compared to D3s and such. I have also seen many photos made by M8 and they were not commercial images. In fact, I do not remember reading anything anywhere making a direct connection to an M8 being used in a specific professional setting. I am not a pro but I use an M8. I know some professional photographers and none of them use an M8. So really, is it a professional camera or not? If so, I'd like to hear in what professional capacity are they used?

 

There are several members here who earn a living shooting weddings with their M8s. Indeed, at least one has replied to this thread, and had a recent spread about the subject in LFI. So, the answer to your question has to be "Yes"

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The "pro" label depends on professional service to the photographer. This means fast and professional technical service and equipment supply. Leica cameras and lenses aren't and cannot be professional tools if you has to wait weeks for a repair service in Germany (I live in Spain, but what if you lives in California, or Japan, or Australia?), or if your dealer cannot be precise about when he will have a particular piece of equipment ("who knows... one week, two weeks... maybe two months...").

 

This is the key element in the S2 professional system of Leica... it isn't the camera or the lenses, the weather seals or the autofocus thing... it is the professional assistance, fast delivery of equipment (from a filter to a new lens you need now) repairing service, replacing equipment to pros, and so on... An efficient structure of worldwide services is very complex and very expensive to develop... When that is done for the S2 Leica will be able to sell other "pro" products as well, based on the R system, the M system or whatever...

 

At this moment Leica doesn't sell "pro" cameras or lenses... At all. No "pro" can rely on Leica for working tools, except if you are ready to assume high doses of risk...

 

That aspect of Leica's ability to deliver on pro level service really does bug me. The usual turnaround for my part of the world seems to be 2 to 6 months. When I brought my first M8 to have its rangefinder calibrated someone was there to receive back 5 lenses sent for coding. He waited 9 months. The thought in my mind was "What have I gotten myself into?" They took 2 + months to do the calibration.

 

As working tools though, they have worked really well for me. Not perfect but well enough to deliver.

 

The risks are real enough but it can alleviated by multiple bodies and lenses as backups. A moment lost can cause a great deal of frustration but I fail more than my tools do, so backup plans are a part of doing business well.

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I have read about the M8 being deemed a professional camera, compared to D3s and such. I have also seen many photos made by M8 and they were not commercial images. In fact, I do not remember reading anything anywhere making a direct connection to an M8 being used in a specific professional setting. I am not a pro but I use an M8. I know some professional photographers and none of them use an M8. So really, is it a professional camera or not? If so, I'd like to hear in what professional capacity are they used?

 

One of the problems in your equation is that you are not a pro, so you are not in among the circles of people who would use the camera professionally. I know you mention that none of the pros you know use the M8, but that just means you are not dealing with all the potential numbers fairly.

 

As noted elsewhere, the very asking if a camera is pro or not is very much an amateur thing to do. Secondly, do you really believe everything you read on the internet? I sure hope not. And just because you personally have not found images on the internet that are of commercial use that are advertised as being from the M8 does not mean they do not exist.

 

You see, most images that have been published in either the commercial or editorial fashion will not say "M8 does a protest", you simply will not know.

 

When I had an M8, I used it for stock, some commercial, but mostly editorial, none of the published images say "Shot with an M8".

 

So yes, the M8 is a pro camera, but this label should not come from the camera maker, an internet gear site or any one person. In fact, the label ought not to exist, because Sally Mann uses the Wet Collodion process, a type of photography largely not in use by anyone, pro or hobby type. But yet, she is a pro. The fact that equipment makers plug something as "Pro" or not in advertising is actually aimed at amateurs. Anyone knows the placement of full specs of the camera in the hands of said pro are what makes the pro choose, not a label.

 

I say don't worry about what is pro or not, it is almost none of your business as far as some photographers would be concerned. Some pros don't want everyone to know what they use, that is proprietary. I am not sure if this question in particular serves anything to anyone other than a means to pick apart a tool to the point of sterility.

 

No one is trying to give you a hard time, just tell you like it is and maybe work to get rid of silly little new age internet things like "Is the M8 Pro?" or "Nice Capture".

Edited by KM-25
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efftee,

 

Its like KM-25(Dan I think) said, it don't matter.

 

Think about it for a moment, discussing if the camera have enough resolution, noise etc is meaningless. I own and use a 4x5 camera, and also a bunch of 135 and 120 cameras. they are for each their thing. all could be considered "pro" well my 2 old Nikon F4s bodies might be too slow by today's standard, but they sure paid my rent for years. the 4x5 shoot enormous "resolution" the 135 don't.

 

The M8 fit where ever it fits because of what it does and clearly it do please some pro's but probably not others.. there are also top Pro shooters who refuse to use a Hassleblad and even a 4x5, its not their cup of tea. Dan have a thing for 25iso film I suppose, most sane amateurs trying to define pro film would say its useless for night photography.. yet its so wonderfully beautiful.

 

A couple of years ago I did a experiement and used two Canon Pro1 P&S cameras (hey got Pro in the name) for a couple of weddings, I wanted to experience the EVF, and to say the truth, the stuff worked just fine. They were not the same as my Kodak 14n... but still fun to shoot with..

 

The camera is what you make of it. though as others have pointed out, the ability to get support is a big thing, for me Leica have been fast, and so have NPS which is 20 minutes drive from me.

 

.

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