M8/9 as a true system camera offering

[delander †]

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Third....as usual the idea I have proposed is not new I have discovered. I phoned several Leica dealers and am told that they are often requested such an item....

 

I told them about our debate in Leica forum and the universal response was that there are some pretty "Wacky" individuals entrenched and effectively running the forum that will not listen to logical arguments ....I could not possibly comment, Iam sure that they are wrong!

 

 

I find is strange that dealers would say that as many of those 'effectively running the forum' are amongst their best customers. In fact enthusiastic reviews of new purchases on this forum, particularly lenses, leads to a lot of similar purchases.

 

Jeff

[stunsworth]

I guess the challenge for Leica engineers is therefore to make a £500 mirror housing to a "M" quality level

 

Given that they currently ask that much for an external viewfinder I wouldn't hold my breath.

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[andybarton]

I think that you are referring to another sub-section of this forum? Unless you are having this discussion on another forum at the same time.

 

Carting gear about is still going to be an issue if you want to use your M with a 35mm Summicron, AND a Visoflex with a 560 Telyt (or whatever) on the same trip, so I think that point is moot.

 

I am not a professional either but I wouldn't dream of building a frankenstein camera with a Visoflex, when there are better, and cheaper solutions out there.

 

Finally, with regards to the voting, less than one in ten of the people who have responded so far have said that they would be interested. Only Peter Mandleson can spin that into being a positive outcome

[Guest BigSplash]

I really don't believe in a one camera fits all philosophy. That's why I own several cameras for different purposes. If I really wanted high resolution, I'd use my 4x5. If I really wanted to do macro work, I'd use my DSLR.

 

But the way I see my M8, it's like a fine fountain pen with a calligraphic nib, useful for some things and not for others. It writes, but in a different way. I like using it for some things and I hate using it for others.

 

Kalina are you a professional photographer?

 

I personally as an amateur would not want to invest in a large set of M lenses and then invest in DSLR (which Leica today does not make) and a range of macro and telephoto lenses (I guess I would exclude lenses in the category: wide -90mm which is LeicaM territory) and then go for a large format on top

 

I also have a Canon XL2 pro movie camera and am tempted by a Sony full digital broadcast quality DVCam ...but it is £50,0000 for this and the rest with the extras. My wife thinks it is over the top for holiday movies, and the baby! She is wrong of course!

[marknorton]

I wonder if this topic has spread to the rangefinder forum yet. Perhaps we should declare a global Visoflex virus pandemic...

[fotografr]

This has to be one of the goofiest threads ever started here.

 

Premise: The M8 is a point & shoot camera.

 

Apparent Objective: Transition this P&S camera into an M9 with full frame, AF super wides, AF super telephotos and sensor quality that will outperform anything Canon and Nikon put in their respective professional cameras.

 

GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

Why don't you just leave the M to those of us who bought them for what they are, not for what we wished they would become?

[luigi bertolotti]

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This has to be one of the goofiest threads ever started here.

 

quote]

 

Can be, indeed, but till feeding goes on... ... and there is a POLL on it, don't forget... one COULD see a definitve trend on it, but ... poll experts could say it's a "short-term" exception (Andy... I didn't understand your joke about Mandleson ... nothing strange for a non-British... )

Edited June 11, 2009 by luigi bertolotti

[SJP]

I voted No obviously.

[stunsworth]

also have a Canon XL2 pro movie camera and am tempted by a Sony full digital broadcast quality DVCam ...but it is £50,0000 for this and the rest with the extras

 

Sell the Krells.

[Guest BigSplash]

This has to be one of the goofiest threads ever started here.

 

Premise: The M8 is a point & shoot camera.

 

Apparent Objective: Transition this P&S camera into an M9 with full frame, AF super wides, AF super telephotos and sensor quality that will outperform anything Canon and Nikon put in their respective professional cameras.

 

GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

Why don't you just leave the M to those of us who bought them for what they are, not for what we wished they would become?

 

GIVE ME A BREAK!

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

 

I also believe that today the M8 is (and the M9 could be a continuation of) the best range finder camera in the world for wide angle to 90mm lenses.

I would argue it is not really point & shoot as it does not have AF....but who cares, it does what we all want it to do as a basis and this MUST not be tampered with.

 

If AF was added then that means electrical contacts to the lens (or Blue tooth type interconnect) and then my next gen mirror housing accessory becomes even more viable...However this is not vital.

 

I actually do not see the devt of a mirror housing as a big devt deal for Leica:

 

> The basic guts of a mirror box must be available within Leica I guess given the many SLR's that they have done and are doing! I am sure that various bits such as the mirror and damping mechanism could be identical for R10

> I am sure items such as the focussing screen could be identical to that or those being developed for the R10 or S2

> I believe that data about aperture selected is available from the R10 devt as is the viewfinder display....etc.

> The main task is I guess is using CAD toold to design the actual housing and fiting existing bits from R10 devt.

 

I am pushing for items that can add and compliment the basic M8/9 offering as part of a roadmap, and I would suggest that Leica management could lever devts made for the R10 roadmap anyway. I am NOT sugggesting that the M8 or M9 concept should be changed in anyway at all.

 

Basically "For those of you who are happy with M8 as is......fine dont buy the accessories" ..be happy!

 

For me and many others we shall buy a next gen mirror housing as above and "R" lenses above 90mm that are in the plan anyway including some medium to long range zooms or variable focus types.

 

My view is that many new users will suddenly be attracted to the LeicaM as not some old technology rangefinder concept for traditionalists, or as some people think of us as weirdos that dont understand what a SLR can do. The M system would widen its capabilities for those who need and want it!

[stunsworth]

I actually do not see the devt of a mirror housing as a big devt deal for Leica

 

But they'd also need to develop a new range of lenses since neither M or R lenses would work on it. Do you _really_ think they'll pour so much R&D into a product that was never even remotely mainstream when it was originally produced?

 

I'm sorry, but you appear to be falling into common trap of thinking what _you_ want would be good for the company as a whole. Not a mistake I would have expected a CEO to make.

Edited June 11, 2009 by stunsworth

[kalina]

Kalina are you a professional photographer?

 

I personally as an amateur would not want to invest in a large set of M lenses and then invest in DSLR (which Leica today does not make) and a range of macro and telephoto lenses (I guess I would exclude lenses in the category: wide -90mm which is LeicaM territory) and then go for a large format on top

 

I also have a Canon XL2 pro movie camera and am tempted by a Sony full digital broadcast quality DVCam ...but it is £50,0000 for this and the rest with the extras. My wife thinks it is over the top for holiday movies, and the baby! She is wrong of course!

 

I'm not a pro photographer (yet). I will have an art gallery up soon at a local community center (yayyy) and I do want to go to MFA school.

 

I would love it if there were an all-in-one camera that does everything great, but there's not. Every camera is different and I've learned to accept that (although it has taken a hit on my finances and I had to sell off old music gear). I want to have every option available to me when I pursue an artistic endeavor. I want the best tool available. I was that way when I produced music, which is why I had $75k worth of music gear in my home studio to produce my music. I see that my growing fascination for cameras might take me over that mark.

 

I've always believed in having the best photo and video equipment to capture images/vids of my son. You don't get many chances to be a parent so why not capture those memories on the best equipment you can afford?

[andybarton]

 

My view is that many new users will suddenly be attracted to the LeicaM as not some old technology rangefinder concept for traditionalists, or as some people think of us as weirdos that dont understand what a SLR can do.

 

And they are going to rush out and buy some old technology rangefinder with a kludgy klunking part that makes it into a poor SLR, are they?

 

No, they're not. They are going to spend their two grand on a Canon 5DII, as any sensible person would.

 

This is a non starter. Believe us when we say it

[adan]

Frank, you've seen my website. You know what I do (photography related to medicine and biotech).

 

I could expand my market by going into school portraiture or wedding photography, but so what? That's not what I do. I'm not interested in being an "anything" photographer - and Leica does not need to be interested in making the M system an "anything" system.

 

The Visoflex (and the Zeiss equivalent) was developed to meet the needs of photographers when there were no SLRs of any significance to fill that role. Once independent SLRs came along to fulfill that role much more competently, Leitz/Leica wisely dropped the Viso concept and moved on.

 

To borrow your own words: If I saw someone actually using a Visoflex (old or new) on an M8, that's what would seriously make me think "old technology rangefinder traditionalist weirdo who doesn't understand what a(n) SLR can do."

 

Not that I have anything against RF traditionalists or weirdos - I qualify for both (I hope) - so those of you who are having fun with a Visoflex on your M8 need not take offense.

 

But I personally would just get a used Nikon D80 and a couple of lenses (60 macro/300 tele) if I need to go beyond what the M8 can handle as is.

[fotografr]

I see the following:

1) The M8 (and eventual full frame M9) is essentially a point and shoot camera that is ideal for wide angle through to say 90mm

 

Ok, that quote was from your initial post.

 

Then in your last post, you follow with this:

 

 

I would argue it is not really point & shoot as it does not have AF....but who cares, it does what we all want it to do as a basis and this MUST not be tampered with.

 

 

So, am I the only one who sees a contradiction here?

[swamiji]

An updated Visoflex.... Hmm I like the idea, full frame or not... I have an Visoflex III with a nice set of lenses from 65mm to 560mm with bellows. I do Macro and normal. The only problem is in the lenses. If you put a standard lens on a Viso, it becomes a close focus lens. I have a R adapter, I have tried several R lenses on my Viso... all close focus. If it was optically simple to correct this, I would have imagined that Leica would have come out with the adapter a long time ago. Having the electronics to get lens info, is the easy part. Getting the optics right to keep an R 85-200mm F4 lens a true 85-200mm F4 lens is the hard part. 2k price tag to correct it... it might be higher.

 

SVS

[ynp]

I voted YES.

 

As an owner of Sinar-M modular system and the Sinaron AF reflex module I like the idea of using AF lenses when needed, to supplement the Manual Focus body.

I also would like to have a camera with a small (35mm.) Kodak CCD sensor. Canons work fine, but I prefer to have a Medium Format type of a sensor in a small body.

 

There are some people who prefer CCD sensors without AA filters, such as a M8 sensor.

Yevgeny

PS Do you remember an attempt of Leica to buy Sinar? What Sinar technology Leica was interested in?

[tom0511]

Comments?

 

I think that sounds far too difficult and theorethic.

The M9 will be just a M8 with some approovements, maybe better IR filter and full frame.

There wont be any new Visoflex.

Thats my guess.

Edited June 11, 2009 by tom0511

[Guest BigSplash]

I find is strange that dealers would say that as many of those 'effectively running the forum' are amongst their best customers. In fact enthusiastic reviews of new purchases on this forum, particularly lenses, leads to a lot of similar purchases.

 

Jeff

 

I agree and was very surprised by the repeated comments from different retailers and various staff.

 

Actually I have some sympathy because in defining any R&D progarm or Product Road map there are always 3 separate things to consider:

 

1) What can be done to define and then deliver new glorious new products that (retailers) can sell, are profitable and have lots of pull thru'

2) What can be done to make factory / operations life easier to fix issues in production (eg New Noctilux delays!)

3) Feedback from existing clients that need to be fixed....but may not actually help retailers or Leica win new clients.

 

My guess is that the Forum naturally focusses item "3" not "1" which is the concern of the retailers and probaly Leica also!

 

Add to that the reality that in my various threads this week I have seen at first hand personal attacks (eg Do I have a job at the moment! Why list my kit...when I was challenged to do so! Suggesting that I was posting my CV and inventing bullet points that I had not said!) ...really gives I guess to outsiders an impression that is not good if this is the norm for this forum.

 

I believe the Forum should be a positive environment open to new ideas and a great way to share ideas ......not focusiing personal attacks all the time. (eg apologies that I was introduced to the M8 forum...sorry, apologies etc ...and then replies to this crap!)

 

My view!

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[Guest BigSplash]

But they'd also need to develop a new range of lenses since neither M or R lenses would work on it. Do you _really_ think they'll pour so much R&D into a product that was never even remotely mainstream when it was originally produced?

 

I'm sorry, but you appear to be falling into common trap of thinking what _you_ want would be good for the company as a whole. Not a mistake I would have expected a CEO to make.

 

You still do not get it.... The range of lenses are actually IDENTICAL as far as the lens elemenst are concerned for 280, 400, 560, 800mm lengths and I believe for 200mm also but am not sure . The glass element is at the extremity of the lens tube (look at a Telyt) the metal tube from the lens element to Viso or R10 comes in two different register lengths with about 10mm difference.

 

In the original Telyt this was accomplished with two type of tube that fitted to the identical lens head unit and this also meant that the lens head unit could be used on the bellows unit for close up........

 

Nothing has changed in physics with respect to optics.

 

As a CEO I actually like to look outside the box and not take a blinkered view based on 50 year old technology availability, and bias to maintaining the current view that for example the M8 is only viable for "snapshots" and low light photography...is that wrong?