Camera Profiles in LR 2.3

[MikeMyers]

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Then there is either something wrong with your LR install or your DNG files.

 

The only time I get embedded in that dropdown list is if I'm looking at a JPG, TIFF or PSD file in the LR develope module.

 

 

 

Dumb mistake on my part. I was looking at a JPG image at the time. Of course it didn't display the camera profiles, as they don't apply to jpg images. I sometimes get so wrapped up in what I'm doing, that I lose track of what I'm really doing.

 

I've since downloaded all the latest profiles, and everything seems to be working.

 

I'm still puzzled about one thing - if the person who posted about this in an internet article is correct, if I do all my editing to the photo in Lightroom, using the default color space, and then export the image as a 'jpg', the jpg image won't look as good as it might had I done my editing in Photoshop, always using sRGB. According to this person, there's no way to tell Lightroom to edit (and display) the image in sRGB. That doesn't make sense to me, as many people do work for the web, not for printing. I still need to look into this a bit more, maybe in the training videos for Lightroom.

[MikeMyers]

I have always assumed that as I am shooting RAW (DNG) and that LR is a raw processor that there is no need at all to use anything other than the default camera calibration, which in my case is set to ACR4.4.

 

LouisB

 

 

I don't know enough to comment, but here's what was recently posted in an item I created in the M8 forum. Maybe you want to try out a newer setting than ACR4.4? I've not yet tried any of these, so I'm the last person to suggest anything here....

 

 

"All of those are M8 profiles. Broadly speaking:

 

1. Adobe Standard gives an "Adobe look"

 

2. Camera Standard gives roughly the same look as the in-camera JPEGs

 

3. ACR 3.6 and 4.4 are the previous generations of Adobe profiles without hue twists, mostly provided for backwards compatibility.

 

The two beta profiles are obsolete, ignore them.

 

Sandy"

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[Shootist]

I've since downloaded all the latest profiles, and everything seems to be working.

 

There should be no need to download anything. All the current embedded profiles, ACR 3.6/4.4 (and whatever other versions of ACR were available for a specific camera model when it was added to the list of supported cameras) and add on profiles for each specific camera are installed when you install the newest version of LR. At least that is what I get on a PC. Not sure about a Mac install. When I installed LR 2.5 the install program actually made a backup of all the older Adobe supplied profiles before installing newer versions and or overwriting the existing ones.

 

I'm still puzzled about one thing - if the person who posted about this in an internet article is correct, if I do all my editing to the photo in Lightroom, using the default color space, and then export the image as a 'jpg', the jpg image won't look as good as it might had I done my editing in Photoshop, always using sRGB. According to this person, there's no way to tell Lightroom to edit (and display) the image in sRGB. That doesn't make sense to me, as many people do work for the web, not for printing. I still need to look into this a bit more, maybe in the training videos for Lightroom.

 

Lets look at this from the other side, the human side, of the computer.

Most all monitors, even the newest models except for the very high dollar wide gamut displays, basically display images in something akin to sRGB. So no matter what color space you are using in LR, which uses ProPhoto, to export images to (Open images in) PS your monitor can only display something close to the sRGB space. These other spaces that are assigned to a RAW image at export to (Openning in) PS are only used for printing (If your printer can handle them).

When you use LR to export to web it converts the exported JPG to the sRGB space automatically.

So what you are seeing on your monitor is what you will get in a JPG for the web.

Where this changes is if you have a aRGB or ProPhoto space assigned to the RAW file when openning in PS and then you "ASSIGN" (instead of converting to) a different color space. Or if you actually save the PS image with the aRGB or Prophoto space as a JPG and then post that on a photo site. Then the web browser you are using will try to display the image in whatever color space and gamut it thinks is right.

[hoppyman]

To answer a couple of items across several posts.

The profiles are only available if you are working with Raw (DNG in this case) files.

LR only offers profiles relevant to your camera type. These are found in the camera calibration menu. If you had for example a Canon camera and the M8 opening a file from each would offer different profile options.

The colour space concept is complex, however a couple of practical points may assist

For your practical purposes, Raw files do not have a colour space set. It is set in your converter program on export. If you have a DNG that you have developed you can export in any desired colour space. That may vary depending on purpose. But if you export a file in sRGB for example the original is not actually altered (nor are other settings permanen)t. That is a fundamental of Raw files.

 

By the way, if you own LR 2.3 you can update to the later versions on line.

[MikeMyers]

Lets look at this from the other side, the human side, of the computer.

Most all monitors, even the newest models except for the very high dollar wide gamut displays, basically display images in something akin to sRGB. So no matter what color space you are using in LR, which uses ProPhoto, to export images to (Open images in) PS your monitor can only display something close to the sRGB space. These other spaces that are assigned to a RAW image at export to (Openning in) PS are only used for printing (If your printer can handle them).

When you use LR to export to web it converts the exported JPG to the sRGB space automatically.

So what you are seeing on your monitor is what you will get in a JPG for the web.

Where this changes is if you have a aRGB or ProPhoto space assigned to the RAW file when openning in PS and then you "ASSIGN" (instead of converting to) a different color space. Or if you actually save the PS image with the aRGB or Prophoto space as a JPG and then post that on a photo site. Then the web browser you are using will try to display the image in whatever color space and gamut it thinks is right.

 

 

That would be good news, if it works just like you describe. Let me ask you a more specific question, simplified to the basics.

 

Let's say you do all your editing of a DNG image in Lightroom 2.5, which uses the ProPhoto color space. Let's assume that you follow all the advice in this forum, and adjust things until the histogram looks correct, and the image on your home display looks good.

 

Then you go to "Export" and save it as a 'jpg' image using the correct settings.

 

You then open up this newly created 'jpg' image in Lightroom.

 

 

 

Is the histogram of the newly saved image, in sRGB, going to be identical to the histogram you worked with while doing your editing? Will all the other image control settings also remain unchanged?

[Shootist]

That would be good news, if it works just like you describe. Let me ask you a more specific question, simplified to the basics.

 

Let's say you do all your editing of a DNG image in Lightroom 2.5, which uses the ProPhoto color space. Let's assume that you follow all the advice in this forum, and adjust things until the histogram looks correct, and the image on your home display looks good.

 

Then you go to "Export" and save it as a 'jpg' image using the correct settings.

 

You then open up this newly created 'jpg' image in Lightroom.

 

 

 

Is the histogram of the newly saved image, in sRGB, going to be identical to the histogram you worked with while doing your editing? Will all the other image control settings also remain unchanged?

 

First off the Prophoto color space is only used to export to a PSD or TIFF file that you open in Photoshop or other image editing program.

If I edit a DNG file in LR and do not export it to either PS as a PSD or TIFF or as a JPG for posting to the web (or whatever) that DNG is not assigned any color space.

Only on export is a color space assign to the image.

I can then look at that same image in Adobe Bridge and open it in ACR and if I have certain settings set correctly all the edits I did in LR will be used in that DNG file BUT their's still not any color space assigned to that DNG. A DNG is a RAW file format, a Digital Negative.

I can even remove those edits in ACR that were made in LR.

If I now send/open that DNG file in PS ACR assigns whatever color space I have select in ACR to use when the file gets sent to PS and or saving directly to a JPG from ACR.

 

When saving/exporting to PS as a PSD or TIFF or saving/exporting to a JPG all those edits I made are included in the JPG/PSD/TIFF file so if you then look at that exported image in LR all sliders will be at the neutral position and some will not be available.

But those edits will still be right where you put them if you look at the DNG file.

 

As far as the histogram I have no idea, maybe yes maybe no. I rarely look at the histogram after I do a levels or curves adjustment.

What is the most important thing to me is how the image looks, bright/dark/whatever I want from the image, not how the histogram looks.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Shootist

[MikeMyers]

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Please look over this page:

Lightroom Color Spaces - O'Reilly Digital Media Blog

 

...and in particular, this paragraph:

 

"Anyone who has used Photoshop quickly realizes that color management is a big deal. You need to set up your color settings dialog box in Photoshop so that you know what color mode you are in. With Lightroom Adobe wanted to simplify the color management process. Lightroom was created to have a ProPhoto RGB color space with an sRGB tone curve. We’ll get into what exactly that means in a moment. The reality is with Lightroom you are working up your images in a very large ProPhoto RGB color space. Exporting those images into an sRGB color space for example will lead to a certain amount of clipping in your histogram. Whether or not that clipping is important depends on the image."

 

 

If I understand that paragraph correctly, and if it's true, then if I edit a photo in Lightroom, and export it as a 'jpg', will lead to a certain amount of clipping, meaning the jpg photo won't be as good as what I saw in Lightroom. Is this true?

[hoppyman]

Please look over this page:

Lightroom Color Spaces - O'Reilly Digital Media Blog

 

...and in particular, this paragraph:

 

"Anyone who has used Photoshop quickly realizes that color management is a big deal. You need to set up your color settings dialog box in Photoshop so that you know what color mode you are in. With Lightroom Adobe wanted to simplify the color management process. Lightroom was created to have a ProPhoto RGB color space with an sRGB tone curve. We’ll get into what exactly that means in a moment. The reality is with Lightroom you are working up your images in a very large ProPhoto RGB color space. Exporting those images into an sRGB color space for example will lead to a certain amount of clipping in your histogram. Whether or not that clipping is important depends on the image."

 

 

If I understand that paragraph correctly, and if it's true, then if I edit a photo in Lightroom, and export it as a 'jpg', will lead to a certain amount of clipping, meaning the jpg photo won't be as good as what I saw in Lightroom. Is this true?

 

Mike this can get complex and confusing.

I'll try to get this right regarding your specific question without bamboozling you or using wrong terms etc. If I make a complete mess of it, someone like Sandy might take pity on us and explain with more clarity/correctly.

One of the concepts of LR is to make this stuff less visible or easier to work with.

Your Raw file is in a very broad color space which means a very large range of possible tones.

Your monitor typically can only display shades that are within a narrower colour space (~sRGB) but the full range of tones that you have captured is actually there. The monitor compresses those recorded values into a range it can display. SO you cannot actually SEE the full range on (most) monitors but another device for example a good inkjet can show more of the captured tones.

 

The M8 for example can certainly record a larger range of tones than can be fit into sRGB. Larger than AdobeRGB in fact. But for files tht are intended for display on screens sRGB is typical. Similarly many commercial printing processes use that colour space as well. One workable technique is to leave your (exported) files in as broad a colour space as you can for as long as you can, then make a version converted to sRGB at for use where you need that. I am talking about TIFFs or PSDs for example exported from your original Raw files. Here is a link to my expert locally. There's a lot of free useful advice available on his site. There are a number of articles that you can work through. It is helpful to start from the beginning .

Contents

[sandymc]

Is the histogram of the newly saved image, in sRGB, going to be identical to the histogram you worked with while doing your editing? Will all the other image control settings also remain unchanged?

 

No, afraid not. Two issues there:

 

1. You may possibly have clipped the actual colors when you converted to sRGB, if the raw file had colors that can't be represented in the sRGB gamut. Which would potentially change the histogram.

 

2. However, there's also a complication in how Lightroom works. LR uses ProPhoto (well, actually Melissa RGB, which is ProPhoto with an sRGB tone curve, as mentioned) to display the histogram, RGB data, etc for a raw file. However, in recent versions, if you load a TIFF or a JPEG which have embedded profiles, Lightroom will use the embedded profile to display the RGB data, etc, which in this case would be sRGB. So actually the two histograms become a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

 

Trust everyone is now suitably confused.

 

Sandy

[MikeMyers]

"Confused" is an understatement; however, the more we discuss this, the more I think I understand what's going on. The fog is gradually lifting (but I've got to admit that before I knew enough to ask, the fog was invisible to me - knowing less, I assumed everything was fine, and was blind to all the complexity).

 

I will read up on the webpage, as well as re-reading this discussion from the beginning. I know that I know more now than a few days ago, but I feel like I don't really know how to apply it to what I do.

 

 

 

Let me simplify the questions I had.

 

 

Suppose that you guy were ONLY creating images for the web, and that you rarely, if ever, print anything. The only thing you want to do is finish up with good images that you can post (and which will look as good as possible on a website). Further suppose that you've used Lightroom long enough that you see all the benefits, and now hardly ever use Photoshop or the other programs currently available.

 

You take a few hundred photos of an event. You load them into Lightroom, and discard those that you don't like. You end up with 25 photos that you want to post on your website.

 

What now?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

(What I'm presently doing is exporting them in sRGB, and uploading them using WSFTP to the web. Once I learn that module, I will probably change over to using the "Web" function of Lightroom, but as I said, I'm still learning Lightroom.)

 

(If I do all the editing in Lightroom, only to have it all changed when it gets exported out of Lightroom, maybe I should be using a different program for my editing instead of Lightroom, and do all my work in sRGB?)

 

(Lastly, right now this is all "theory". To my eye, my exported images look just fine. But now you've got me really curious. I guess I need to take an image that I've edited in Lightroom, export it as described above, then open the exported image in Photoshop while in sRGB, and compare these "before and after" images, looking at both the image itself and the histogram.)

[Shootist]

Good question.

For me although I have bought and installed the 2 versions of LR, 1 & 2, and done all the updates for each version when they came out I use LR maybe 0.0001% of the time I'm on the computer looking at or editing photos.

I just don't care for it.

I do use PS CS4 with Adobe Bridge and whatever current version of ACR is out there.

I also use Phase One Capture 1 version 4 (4.8.3 presently) sometimes but I lean more to Bridge/ACR/PS for all my editing.

 

I would never find/use LR as the end/final software for photo editing.

[MikeMyers]

I had LR1 for ages, but never used it - never took the time to learn how. I got LR2 because I started using the DNG negatives from my new Leica - the software Leica recommended (Capture 1) seemed even more confusing, and there's lots of training material for LR.

 

I've got "Bridge", but never knew what it was, or why I'd want to use it. I've been using Photoshop when necessary ever since I purchased version 4 a lifetime ago. I can eventually get it to do what I want, but I find it the most confusing of all, even though I've now bought five or six books over the years on how to use it. I don't learn well from reading, I guess.

 

I decided the only way to learn LR was to use it, so for the past few weeks I've been struggling with how to get it to do everything I need. Some things it just can't do, so I'm back to Photoshop. For most things, it seems like an ideal way to organize my photos, and the more I use it, the more I like it.

 

In my opinion so far (based on my very limited experience), I like LR more than dislike it, but I guess I'm a slow learner. Just the same, participating in this forum has been a great experience, as the more I use the forum, the more I learn. (I also learn about things such as this topic that I probably wouldn't even have thought about until someone else brought them up....)

 

 

 

At this point in time, I don't know what I'll be using in the future. If the Leica created JPG images as nicely as my Nikon does, I'd probably still be shooting in JPG.

[hoppyman]

"Confused" is an understatement; however, the more we discuss this, the more I think I understand what's going on. The fog is gradually lifting (but I've got to admit that before I knew enough to ask, the fog was invisible to me - knowing less, I assumed everything was fine, and was blind to all the complexity).

 

I will read up on the webpage, as well as re-reading this discussion from the beginning. I know that I know more now than a few days ago, but I feel like I don't really know how to apply it to what I do.

 

 

 

Let me simplify the questions I had.

 

 

Suppose that you guy were ONLY creating images for the web, and that you rarely, if ever, print anything. The only thing you want to do is finish up with good images that you can post (and which will look as good as possible on a website). Further suppose that you've used Lightroom long enough that you see all the benefits, and now hardly ever use Photoshop or the other programs currently available.

 

You take a few hundred photos of an event. You load them into Lightroom, and discard those that you don't like. You end up with 25 photos that you want to post on your website.

 

What now?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

(What I'm presently doing is exporting them in sRGB, and uploading them using WSFTP to the web. Once I learn that module, I will probably change over to using the "Web" function of Lightroom, but as I said, I'm still learning Lightroom.)

 

(If I do all the editing in Lightroom, only to have it all changed when it gets exported out of Lightroom, maybe I should be using a different program for my editing instead of Lightroom, and do all my work in sRGB?)

 

(Lastly, right now this is all "theory". To my eye, my exported images look just fine. But now you've got me really curious. I guess I need to take an image that I've edited in Lightroom, export it as described above, then open the exported image in Photoshop while in sRGB, and compare these "before and after" images, looking at both the image itself and the histogram.)

 

Mike, if your only output is web images then exporting as sRGB initially may have no practical disadvantage. Your original Raw files can be re-exported with any different settings at any time. You do need to end up as sRGB before uploading.

Lightroom is fundamentally different to other image editing programs. That is an extremely broad topic of course. For your purpose there is no reason at all that you can not complete all of your developing within LR and export your images completely ready for uploading. In addition of course the web module is specifically designed to produce complete galleries using your choice of methods too (HTML, Flash etc).

I recommend that you invest some time in a good learning resouce as LR is a hugely capable program and designed from the start for photographers.

One excellent book is The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 2 book by Martin Evening.

Naturally there are on-line tutorials available as well.

[MikeMyers]

First, what you suggest is pretty much what I now plan on doing. Export the images in sRGB, upload them to wherever they need to go, then delete the uploaded images. I've already used the "web" module for uploading 'flash' slide shows, and that worked out great. So, I'm really happy with things.

 

In fact, I've stopped shooting 'jpg' and have no plans to use that any more. I know the M8 produces much better images is you shoot in 'dng', so this is a win/win situation.

 

As to learning, much of what I've learned came from this page:

AdobeTV | Learn Lightroom 2.0

I do much better with video examples than reading books. Just the same, I'll probably buy one of the better books once I get back to Miami.

 

Actually, you guys have been the biggest help I've found anywhere, as when I get stuck on something, I can ask about it, and get answers back in words that usually make sense to me, unlike some web sites that I find very hard to follow. I'm passing on much of this information - after I recommended it, my brother and his wife decided they wanted LR, and little by little I'm teaching them what I know - but we're mostly watching the videos now, for the 'develop' module. When I get to India in a month or so, I'll be teaching the people there how to use LR.

 

I'm a very happy camper. All this is making me enjoy my M8 all that much more. This particular discussion was about camera profiles - I wonder when they'll provide one for the M9....

[lejos]

Mike,

I highly recommend that you read

The Photographer's Guide to Color Management by Phil Nelson

Amherst Media, Inc.

It is a very clear explanation of color management, and color-managed workflow.

You can find it at Amazon.