Updated C1 - now a strange anomaly, except with Photoshop

[Speenth]

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I am not a computer person and the slightest technical glitch truly throws me. This is a strange one:

 

Yesterday I updated C1 to 4.8.1 (I think it was). All seems fine, but when I process images (as jpgs) the unprocessed RAW hues appear in the Windows Explorer icons and also when I load the jpgs into Corel PaintShop Pro. However, if I load the jpgs into Photoshop or Picasa everything is as it should be!

 

It is not my eyes fooling me, because I deliberately created some greyscale images in C1 and processed them. Viewed in Windows or Corel, they're still in full, unadjusted colour!

 

What have I done?

[Jamie Roberts]

Are you saying the Windows Explorer JPG thumbnails are incorrect? That's not C1's fault. Or are you saying you have a set of JPEGs with seemingly different renderings?

 

I suspect you have two sets of JPEGs being created in different places. What does your output tab say in C1? Where is the folder, and what recipes (If this is C1 Pro) are you using?

 

Try outputting with a completely different name on the file and see what the JPEG thumbnails look like.

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[Speenth]

Are you saying the Windows Explorer JPG thumbnails are incorrect? That's not C1's fault. Or are you saying you have a set of JPEGs with seemingly different renderings?

 

I suspect you have two sets of JPEGs being created in different places. What does your output tab say in C1? Where is the folder, and what recipes (If this is C1 Pro) are you using?

 

Try outputting with a completely different name on the file and see what the JPEG thumbnails look like.

 

 

Hi' Jamie,

 

Yes, on re-reading I realise I've not been clear. I definitely have one set of jpgs with different renderings. I use C1 Pro to turn RAW images into jpgs. When I select 'process' in C1 I send the newly created jpgs to a dedicated folder in Windows Explorer. I've always worked this way without problems until yesterday's update of C1.

 

Now strangely, the jpgs in the dedicated Windows folder appear as if they have not been 'adjusted' in C1 (even where I have been radical - for instance making a monochrome image). If I open these jpgs in Windows Viewer or Corel PaintShop Pro they are identical to the original RAW images. However, if I open these same jpgs in Picasa or in Photoshop, they appear exactly as I had rendered them in C1!

 

Thus, somehow, the jpgs are being exported from C1 with attributes that are recognised by some imaging software (Photoshop and Picasa) but not by others (Windows and Corel).

 

Hope this is clearer, because I am completely stumped!

 

Steve'

 

PS: I have not yet progressed to recipes - I am still trying to master the basics of C1! Your comment makes me realise I should look at this. I suspect I do not import and export properly either.

[Jamie Roberts]

Well, you don't need to import or export things from C1. Just point it to a folder, pick your output folder, and develop the shots. That's it.

 

Have you set C1 to open JPEGs automatically in PS?

 

Or can you actually navigate to the same JPEG file and see that it's different in different programs like Corel and PS?

 

I'm asking because what you're describing is actually impossible A JPEG is just a bitmap. If you've gotten rid of the colour data it's gone: there's no way one program would render it in colour and another rendered in BW.

 

So try this test:

1. Create a new folder on your computer where you can find it easily. Let's say c:\test_jpeg\
   
2. Copy one of the JPEGs you think is weird there
   
3. Fire up Corel and use the File...Open dialog to get to c:\test_jpeg\ and open up the file.
   
4. Fire up Photoshop and use the File...Open dialog to get to c:\test_jpeg\ and open up the file.
   

I'm betting they look identical.

 

So: you're actually creating two JPEGs from a RAW I think, maybe even what C1 calls a "variant". But try this first...

[Speenth]

Well, you don't need to import or export things from C1. Just point it to a folder, pick your output folder, and develop the shots. That's it.

 

Have you set C1 to open JPEGs automatically in PS?

 

Or can you actually navigate to the same JPEG file and see that it's different in different programs like Corel and PS?

 

I'm asking because what you're describing is actually impossible A JPEG is just a bitmap. If you've gotten rid of the colour data it's gone: there's no way one program would render it in colour and another rendered in BW.

 

So try this test:

1. Create a new folder on your computer where you can find it easily. Let's say c:\test_jpeg\
   
2. Copy one of the JPEGs you think is weird there
   
3. Fire up Corel and use the File...Open dialog to get to c:\test_jpeg\ and open up the file.
   
4. Fire up Photoshop and use the File...Open dialog to get to c:\test_jpeg\ and open up the file.
   

I'm betting they look identical.

 

So: you're actually creating two JPEGs from a RAW I think, maybe even what C1 calls a "variant". But try this first...

 

Hi' Jamie,

 

OK, this is very interesting. First, to reply to your initial points: I don't have C1 set to automatically open images in any other software - simply to send processed images to a nominated folder.

 

I am definitely opening the same jpeg in the different applications.

 

Earlier I was in the office, but now I'm now sitting at home with C1 open and I am doing precisely the steps you suggest:

 

1 Folder created using Windows Explore - called 'jpgtest'

 

2 One of the wierd jpgs copied to it (called 'Storm Cloud_1'.jpg).

 

3 Corel opened and the file in 'jpgtest' selected - see first screenshot.

 

4 Ditto for Photoshop - see second screenshot.

 

Interesting eh? I promise you, I have done nothing else to this file!

 

The second screenshot in PS shows the image as it was rendered in C1 i.e.monochrome.

 

The first screenshot in Corel shows the image looking identical to the unrendered RAW.

 

I think I'm going back to film - halides are simple things .....

 

Steve'

[jaapv]

First off - but that is not the point here- in general using Jpeg to transport images from one application to another is not a good idea. You introduce compression artifacts that will get worse each time you copy the file. Tiff, uncompressed, 16 bits, aRGB is the correct format.

I can only echo jamie - whatever application you open a file with, it has the same information. One of the less amusing characteristics of c1 is to create backup folders in unexpected places. I suspect you are still opening different files, by the same name, but originating from different folders.

[Speenth]

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First off - but that is not the point here- in general using Jpeg to transport images from one application to another is not a good idea. You introduce compression artifacts that will get worse each time you copy the file. Tiff, uncompressed, 16 bits, aRGB is the correct format.

I can only echo jamie - whatever application you open a file with, it has the same information. One of the less amusing characteristics of c1 is to create backup folders in unexpected places. I suspect you are still opening different files, by the same name, but originating from different folders.

 

Hi' Jaap,

 

I understand what you're saying, but your comments make me still more frustrated. Read very carefully what I did in generating the two screenshots above. I am opening the same single jpg in various applications (in this case PS and Corel PSPro, but the same variations occur between Picasa and Windows Viewer). I am simply demonstrating a phenomenon that has been introduced since I updated to the latest version of C1 (last night). I have never previously experienced such a problem.

 

Two of my image editor/viewer applications present the same jpg as if it was still the RAW, two show the C1 rendered monochrome. How can that be?

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi' Jaap,

 

{snipped}

 

Two of my image editor/viewer applications present the same jpg as if it was still the RAW, two show the C1 rendered monochrome. How can that be?

 

Verrryyyy Interesting indeed

 

So some more things to help diagnose this, because, again, a JPEG can't have twin renderings to the best of my knowledge.

 

Which means something is up in the processing chain...

 

1) Can you send or post the JPEG out of C1? Thanks!

2) What happens when you point C1 to the JPEG test directory we set up? It reads JPEGs, so what does C1 say looks like ?

3) Is it possible that PS Elements is set to "monochrome"? See that "Only show after" box? What happens if you set it to "before"?

 

Something weird is happening here, and you're either looking at two different files (and C1's is hidden somewhere) OR something is happening in one of the applications...

[Speenth]

Verrryyyy Interesting indeed

 

So some more things to help diagnose this, because, again, a JPEG can't have twin renderings to the best of my knowledge.

 

Which means something is up in the processing chain...

 

1) Can you send or post the JPEG out of C1? Thanks!

2) What happens when you point C1 to the JPEG test directory we set up? It reads JPEGs, so what does C1 say looks like ?

3) Is it possible that PS Elements is set to "monochrome"? See that "Only show after" box? What happens if you set it to "before"?

 

Something weird is happening here, and you're either looking at two different files (and C1's is hidden somewhere) OR something is happening in one of the applications...

 

Hi' Jamie,

 

Boringly, I'm at work once more, but this evening I'll mail you the jpg and the original RAW and check out your latest ideas. Incidentally, the PS 'After' issue is the default setting. The monochrome appearance was created in C1. However, I will try switching to 'Before' and see if the jpg reverts to colour. This would not explain however, the fact that Picasa Viewer correctly shows the image in monochrome, but Windows Viewer shows it in colour.

[Jamie Roberts]

We'll have to see when you send the file what's up.

 

I *do* notice that in the Corel shot above, your file says storm_cloud1 with no jpg extension, but Photoshop correctly identifies the file as storm_cloud1.jpg...

 

I don't know Corel but is that standard to leave off the file extension?

 

Could you still be looking at the DNG in Corel? Is it managing file assosciations or something?

[Speenth]

Hi' Jamie,

 

I'm home and its time to once more beleaguer you (and the entire forum) with my little mystery. If I don't find a solution soon, I think I'll try re-downloading the C1 update and see what happens.

 

First, in response to your suggestions of last night, i.e:

 

Jamie: 1) Can you send or post the JPEG out of C1?

Steve: Done - after a fashion - see your forum mail (the funny jpeg is there, but I couldn't find a way to post the original DNG - I regret I am a computerphobe).

 

Jamie: 2) What happens when you point C1 to the JPEG test directory we set up? It reads JPEGs, so what does C1 say looks like ?

 

Steve: It shows the rendered jpeg - see screenshot.

 

Jamie: 3) Is it possible that PS Elements is set to "monochrome"? See that "Only show after" box? What happens if you set it to "before"?

 

Steve: See screenshot - nothing changes.

 

Jamie: 4) Something weird is happening here, and you're either looking at two different files (and C1's is hidden somewhere) OR something is happening in one of the applications...

 

Steve: You're right - but it is only happening since I updated C1. All other programs are unmodded.

 

Jamie: 5) I *do* notice that in the Corel shot above, your file says storm_cloud1 with no jpg extension, but Photoshop correctly identifies the file as storm_cloud1.jpg...

 

Steve: Its a jpeg, even in Corel - see screenshot showing image attributes in Corel.

 

Steve: I wonder if there is something wrong with the C1 output. It is sending an image containing monochrome elements picked up by some image viewers and not by others.

 

Steve: The last screenprint shows the Windows Explorer folder to which C1 routinely outputs. I have made the icons very large so you can see that Windows shows the jpeg in the hues of the original RAW, but earlier images from the same set, developed pre-C1 update (numbered ones shown) are all rendered correctly.

 

Steve: I am looking forward to your reply, particularly once you've been able to study the C1 jpeg I linked for you in the email.

 

Steve'

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi Steve,

 

Well, I'm happy to report that the file you sent me through Zenfolio is a colour JPEG file: it's colour in ever application I open it with

 

It's also named Storm Cloud.jpg, which is not the storm_cloud_1.jpg

 

So I still think you're looking at two separate files.

 

Do this for me to see what's going on:

 

1) Close all your folders. Close all your applications.

2) Reboot

3) Open Photoshop, but don't open any pictures

4) Open Corel, but don't open any pictures

5) Open the folder with the weird JPEG.

6) Drag and drop the JPEG into the empty Photoshop workspace

7) Drag and drop the JPEG into the empty Corel workspace.

 

I'm betting you see the same rendering You should, anyway, unless some program setting is letting you "view in monochrome" somewhere...

[jaapv]

Done - after a fashion - see your forum mail (the funny jpeg is there, but I couldn't find a way to post the original DNG - I regret I am a computerphobe).

 

I would say you are doing quite well for a computerphobe:).

If you want to send large files use YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement. You upload the file and it sends an e-mail to the receptor, who can in turn download it, or you can publish the link. And it is free.

[Speenth]

Hi Steve,

 

Well, I'm happy to report that the file you sent me through Zenfolio is a colour JPEG file: it's colour in ever application I open it with

 

It's also named Storm Cloud.jpg, which is not the storm_cloud_1.jpg

 

So I still think you're looking at two separate files.

 

Do this for me to see what's going on:

 

1) Close all your folders. Close all your applications.

2) Reboot

3) Open Photoshop, but don't open any pictures

4) Open Corel, but don't open any pictures

5) Open the folder with the weird JPEG.

6) Drag and drop the JPEG into the empty Photoshop workspace

7) Drag and drop the JPEG into the empty Corel workspace.

 

I'm betting you see the same rendering You should, anyway, unless some program setting is letting you "view in monochrome" somewhere...

 

Hi' Jamie,

 

I must have been very tired last night. I put the wrong jpeg on Zenfolio! The correct one (storm_cloud_1.jpg) is now in the same Zenfolio folder. My apologies. Most intriguingly, having uploaded the correct jpeg - Zenfolio does its stuff and properly presents it as a C1-processed monochrome.

 

I will try Jaap's excellent tip regarding the mailing of large files to try to get the original DNG to you - so sometime today, I'll send you another private mailing.

 

I tried your latest suggestion - I closed everything, opened PS and Corel and dragged storm_cloud_1.jpg from the jpgtest folder into each application's blank workspace. In each case, no change - in Adobe it is correctly rendered as a C1-processed monochrome jpeg, in Corel in full colour. In the jpgtest Windows folder the icon is in full colour, but if I open it in the Picasa Viewer it is correctly shown as a monochrome, and as we now know, Zenfolio recognises it as a monochrome too!

 

I should add for clarity, that we're not talking about one rogue jpeg here - this is the case with all my C1 output since I updated C1 three nights ago. Somehow, C1 is creating files that purport to be jpegs, but appear to contain data which can be interpreted in different ways by the various editor/viewer applications.

[Jamie Roberts]

Ahhhhh!! Solved it

 

Ok, so what you're doing in C1 is outputting the JPEG with the BW Phase ICC profile attached.

 

The only thing "monochrome" about the JPEG is the profile (the JPEG data is actually still in colour), and since it's not a "full" profile (but meant for input) it doesn't quite work on output with all applications.

 

So in a colour managed application like Photoshop or Breezebrowser (or Zenfolio?--evidently!) the file renders as monochrome.

 

In a non-color managed application (like Windows file browser) the ICC profile is being ignored, so the transformation you've made with the profile is being ignored, and hence the file is showing in colour.

 

If you want a more consistent approach to output (one that is profile independent) then

what you need to do is set up your output profile on C1.

 

Are you using Pro? Then you have recipes for outputting. They should be outputting to the sRGB colour space for general online and print purposes (though aRGB is a good choice for a completely colour-managed workflow from capture to print).

 

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Edited June 11, 2009 by Jamie Roberts

[Speenth]

Jamie,

 

You're a gentleman and a genius!

 

Thank you so much for your patience and freely given expertise. This is what a members' forum should be all about - and here has been a case in point of the excellence of the Leica User Forum.

 

I was completely at a loss - but soon normal business will be resumed and I can get back to the business of taking terrible photos and having them rescued by the combined qualites of Leica gear and clever software (and the occasional sprinkling of very special help from people like yourself).

 

Regards

 

Steve'

[Speenth]

I would say you are doing quite well for a computerphobe:).

If you want to send large files use YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement.

 

Hi' Jaap,

 

Thanks as always, for the good advice and for the great tip about 'YouSendIt' - very clever!

 

As you can see, my mystery is solved, thanks to Jamie's logical detective work (and unceasing patience). For me, the sheer logicality of computers is the unnerving bit. Please, I want to go back to a darkroom, wet sloshy stuff, fumbling about and getting high on the aldehydes .....

 

Steve'

Edited June 11, 2009 by Speenth