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rosuna

Erwin Puts on the future of the Leica M system

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I was explicitly told '$ 10,000' by the Norwegian dealer representative. Meaning that it would cost equal to $ 12,000 for regular Norwegian consumers ( but only $ 10,000 to pro's that can deduct the 20% VAT/sales tax). Ex any national sales tax, the M9 will cost in the region of € 7.400 here in Europe. Meaning that regular Norwegian consumers would rather buy them at some overseas tax free sales outlet. Like Singapore (like I do) or Abu Dabi etc. € 7.000 matches the price of Canon's 1Ds here in Europe when it was released in the winter of 2002/03.

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I was explicitly told '$ 10,000' by the Norwegian dealer representative. Meaning that it would cost equal to $ 12,000 for regular Norwegian consumers ( but only $ 10,000 to pro's that can deduct the 20% VAT/sales tax). Ex any national sales tax, the M9 will cost in the region of € 7.400 here in Europe. Meaning that regular Norwegian consumers would rather buy them at some overseas tax free sales outlet. Like Singapore (like I do) or Abu Dabi etc. € 7.000 matches the price of Canon's 1Ds here in Europe when it was released in the winter of 2002/03.

 

I can't be alone in finding it difficult to believe that Leica is broadcasting it's intention to release a full-frame camera far-and-wide, including price, at such an early stage, and to so many (evidently untrustworthy) people. And then this supposedly secret information is disseminated here - and it's source is obvious and even named?

If true, then sales of the M8.2 will be hard hit, and now also hard hit even if not true...

 

Anyway, I find the twelve-thousand dollar price-point difficult to believe frankly, especially in view of offers like this, that was posted over on the S2 section.

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$ 12.000 includes VAT (Norwegian MOMS) of 20% and is my easy calculation. The 'tax free' price of 10,000 $ was what was mentioned. Detailed information, even pictures, on M8 were leaked weeks, even months, before it was released. Leica's ability to keep it's new models secret does not impress me.

 

Thanks for the link to the S2 add. To me, it only confirms that '10,000 $' is what me must expect for a M9, - before local sales tax is added.

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I can't be alone in finding it difficult to believe that Leica is broadcasting it's intention to release a full-frame camera far-and-wide, including price, at such an early stage, and to so many (evidently untrustworthy) people. And then this supposedly secret information is disseminated here - and it's source is obvious and even named?

If true, then sales of the M8.2 will be hard hit, and now also hard hit even if not true...

 

Anyway, I find the twelve-thousand dollar price-point difficult to believe frankly, especially in view of offers like this, that was posted over on the S2 section.

The effect of this rumour will not have any impact on the M8.2 with this pricetag attached. I cannot imagine a large market for the camera at that price. If Leica should produce such a body and the M8.2 simultaneously I would put the sales at 20%-80%. The price difference is an awful lot of money for a not-too-dramatic increase in sensor real estate, the IR filters are rather a non-issue for the majority of users and most can live with the ISO performance as it is now...The pixel count is moot for any prints under A0 as well. I would not even buy such an M9 even if it were priced the same as the M8.2. I'm saving my budget for the DMR successor, hopefully early 2010.

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Wouldn't it make sense to sell an M8.2 and M9 at the same time and price the M8.2 at a more entry level rate?

What's an M9?

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What's an M9?

 

I am *of course* talking about the inevitable successor to the M8.2 which may or may not be called an M9...Do you need somebody to hold your hand through this conversation? Or are you just making an attempt to be clever?

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I am *of course* talking about the inevitable successor to the M8.2 which may or may not be called an M9...Do you need somebody to hold your hand through this conversation? Or are you just making an attempt to be clever?

Please hold my hand as this conversation is as much in the dark regarding an M9 as all the other previous ones.

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The effect of this rumour will not have any impact on the M8.2 with this pricetag attached. I cannot imagine a large market for the camera at that price. If Leica should produce such a body and the M8.2 simultaneously I would put the sales at 20%-80%. The price difference is an awful lot of money for a not-too-dramatic increase in sensor real estate, the IR filters are rather a non-issue for the majority of users and most can live with the ISO performance as it is now...The pixel count is moot for any prints under A0 as well. I would not even buy such an M9 even if it were priced the same as the M8.2. I'm saving my budget for the DMR successor, hopefully early 2010.

 

That's your priority.

 

I use Canon 1Ds III as DSLR. The advantage of Leica is the lenses. Typical for 1Ds III is that it tests the Canon lenses to their limits. I am sure that a M camera with a higher pixel count will reveal how good the Leica lenses are. I agree that the price for the new Leica M9 is high. But it is a matter of priority. I am not so sure I will be among the first buyers this time. I am a bit exhausted being a beta tester.

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I had a conversation with two of the west coast's largest Leica dealers, Keeble and Schucket and Camera West, today and they both said the same thing about an M8/M8.2 replacement of course there will be one but not anytime soon that they are aware of. I told them about a dealer taking a deposit on a future M replacement and asked them if I could put one down for one and they both declined saying they thought it a bit unethical to take money from me for an unknown item with an unknown release date. I told them about the specifics of the camera and they both said it sounds like the S2. Reporting from the scene.

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Offshore,

 

The time I was told that a M9 would be available was 'after Fotokina 2010'. I never heard 'this year'.

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If the M9 is as described, I'll pass; it's not enough different, and since I already have the filters, the lack of filters doesn't do much for me. And, I kind of like the 1.3x version for the extra length is gives the fast 50s.

 

The one thing that would sell me on an M9 is focus confirm. If it has focus confirm, I'll buy it. I'm not a "precise-framing" fanatic, having learned photography as a journalist, where we were taught that precise framing can be a problem best solved by leaving a little extra around the edges, and cropping in the enlarger; so I don't worry too much about that. But focus confirm? Yummy.

 

The chances that I think it will have focus confirm? About 3%.

 

I think a huge problem that Leica has is an ill-defined idea of what a Leica should be. They've settled on a mechanical definition, characterized by the M8's silly bottom plate and the asinine little round LCD which was supposed to be reminiscent of a rewind knob, but isn't, and in the meantime, can't give us all the other information that it might, if it were rectangular and three times as large. What Leica needs to do is to come up with an M3-sized and weighted, modern, rangefinder or rangefinger-like camera that can use M lenses as manual lenses, but that might also use some more electronically coupled lenses, with in-body autofocus and focus-confirm for manual lenses, and a twistable LCD. In other words, it needs to go back to the Leica concept, rather than Leica's mechanical tradition.

 

As I write this I'm sitting here with a Panasonic G1 with the 14--45 zoom and a Leica M8 with the Nocti; the Panasonic feels smaller in my hand, and is definitely a lot lighter. The twistable screen is probably 1.5 x bigger than the Leica's. I can compose and focus using the EFV, but by twisting the screen, I can also hold the camera at arm's length over my head and at ankle height and still compose and focus. This is not some strange other-world aberration to be shouted down -- it's very much like compose and focus on a ground-glass. The battery is larger and lasts longer.

 

I will concede that the M8's IQ is better, for now -- but that advantage I doubt will last for long. Somebody -- maybe Olympus, and maybe this summer -- is going to come along with the lenses this camera deserves, and Leica is going to be in a world of hurt. Olympus and Panasonic are taking the Leica *concept*, and are sticking it up Leica's ass.

 

JC

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"I will concede that the M8's IQ is better, for now -- but that advantage I doubt will last for long. Somebody -- maybe Olympus, and maybe this summer -- is going to come along with the lenses this camera deserves, and Leica is going to be in a world of hurt. Olympus and Panasonic are taking the Leica *concept*, and are sticking it up Leica's ass."

 

Agreed, the Leica R&D team are way behind everyone else. The fact you have to hard-code lenses when it's all back-end software driven pretty much shows they haven't got a clue about the technology.

 

Having said that, maybe they need a good kick up their ass. Nothing like declining worldwide sales (look fanatics will always buy Leica, even if it's utterly shite) to really make innovation the key selling point.

 

I love my M8 during the day, but when it gets dark I have to put it away as the quality is just awful, my G10 outperforms the unit on a regular basis

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Agreed, the Leica R&D team are way behind everyone else. The fact you have to hard-code lenses when it's all back-end software driven pretty much shows they haven't got a clue about the technology.

...

 

What scheme would you rather see (it has to work with the existing lenses).

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Software driven, this is not the 70's with punch card technology so why has Leica decided to use that same principle with a basic algorithm to determine what lens is attached?

 

menu option, select lens from list of pre-defined lenses.

 

We aren't talking rocket science and I cannot see ONE benefit of the current coding scheme except as another revenue, albeit it very small, for Leica.

 

The processor has to read the dots anyway, and with the fact that we can trick it to believe any lens is attach, regardless of the make/model, leads me to believe it is a revenue stream over a technical issue

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Offshore,

 

The time I was told that a M9 would be available was 'after Fotokina 2010'. I never heard 'this year'.

 

Wasn't talkin' bout you Olsen was referrin' ta this by lovelyleica:

 

Originally Posted by lovelyleica

Just for your info, here is the immediate future of Leica M (Leica source):

 

Leica M9 launched end of this year:

18.5 Mpx

Full frame

No more IR filters needed

Same size as current M8

 

Already reserved one by my Leica dealer here in CH

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Interesting.

 

This is very similar to what a representative of the Norwegian Leica importer told me back in March. But he told me that the 'M9' will be available just after Fotokina in 2010. That is a year later than what your source is saying. Cathay Photo, Singapore, confirmed practically what you say regarding specs (18 mill. pixels, no filter Full Frame), just last week, but knew nothing about when M9 will be in the shop. If Leica manages to make the M9 available already this year, then that is quite fantastic.

 

M9 will be expensive, the above sources say. With today's currency rate the price will be $ 10,000.

 

Regarding Cathay Photo Singapore, I will ask their boss. He always gave me the impression we were the boon docks when it came to delivery of the latest items from Leica. OTOH he does know my aversion to being a guinea pig

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W

 

Leica M9 launched end of this year:

18.5 Mpx

Full frame

No more IR filters needed

Same size as current M8

 

 

14-16Mp is enough for me, but please, "true 14 bit files" and good dynamic range and low noise.

 

I don't care about filters because I use them for protecting the front lens element in any case.

 

I would like to see the S2's interface in this M9 (the 4 buttons interface and menus).

 

The rangefinder must be more precise, for perfect focus with any lens, including a Summicron 90mm.

 

A silent shutter in all models.

 

Weather seals would be great too.

 

That's all I need/want.

 

It is not so difficult, considering the previous development of the Leica S2.

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Software driven, this is not the 70's with punch card technology so why has Leica decided to use that same principle with a basic algorithm to determine what lens is attached?

....

 

While I agree it would be a nice option, it would suck to have to do that each time you change a lens.

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14-16Mp is enough for me, but please, "true 14 bit files" and good dynamic range and low noise.

 

I don't care about filters because I use them for protecting the front lens element in any case.

 

I would like to see the S2's interface in this M9 (the 4 buttons interface and menus).

 

The rangefinder must be more precise, for perfect focus with any lens, including a Summicron 90mm.

 

A silent shutter in all models.

 

Weather seals would be great too.

 

That's all I need/want.

 

It is not so difficult, considering the previous development of the Leica S2.

 

Rosuna that was lovelyleicas post I can't take credit for pie-in-the-sky.

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