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A Sfeir

New lenses and the future of FF

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Your views on scanning are well known,

 

So are yours, so by your own logic you should censor yourself as well

 

Not everyone has the benefit of (or the time to devote to) a wet darkroom. Not everyone thinks that the M8.x is the best thing since sliced bread. Not everyone can afford an Imacon.

 

I include myself in all of the above. Doesn't change the facts regarding the digitisation of film by a desktop scanner one whit.

 

Get over it.

 

(Apologies to the thread for having wandered off topic)

 

I never understood why some people think that issuing an apology (or saying "No offense" and then proceeding to offend) excuses them from netiquette, forum rules, and good manners in general. Perhaps as a moderator you can enlighten us

 

Real men break their loaf with their bare hands.

 

"Break their loaf"...is that the consequence of over-zealously slapping their salami?

Edited by Xing

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It's all down to opinion, not fact. IMHO. Your opinion differs from mine. Which is great. I don't like Dr Pepper - you might. I prefer red, not blue - you might not have an opinion on football teams.

 

I am satisfied with the results that I get from scanned film and digital prints from those scans. So is my wife. What anyone else thinks is not important to me, as I only do this to please myself. I am pleased.

 

BTW, I wasn't aware that I was as viciferous in support of scanning as you are in its denegration, but I will take the time this Bank Holiday to go back through my posts and check. Thanks for making me think about this.

 

As for "excuses them from netiquette, forum rules, and good manners in general.", well, if you have been offended by my "Get over it" comment, I am very sorry.

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What is it with sliced bread?

 

Hi Jaap,

 

I realize you are partly joking but just in case....when sliced bread was first produced it was considered to be a big accomplishment because it saved the home-maker from the labor of slicing bread and because each slice was about the same size. Obviously, it is a very old expression.

 

Maybe you already knew that.

 

Sliced bread is also easier to scan.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Edited by sean_reid

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Hi Jaap,

 

I realize you are joking in part but just in case....when sliced bread was first produced it was considered to be a big accomplishment because it saved the home-maker from the labor of slicing bread and because each slice was about the same size, etc.. Obviously, it is a very old expression.

 

Maybe you already knew that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Apparently the best thing before sliced bread was llamas. But they are rubbish for making sandwiches.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Hi Jaap,

 

I realize you are partly joking in part but just in case....when sliced bread was first produced it was considered to be a big accomplishment because it saved the home-maker from the labor of slicing bread and because each slice was about the same size. Obviously, it is a very old expression.

 

Maybe you already knew that.

 

Sliced bread is also easier to scan.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

 

Sean, I did know that, but I still find it a funny expression, I mean the invention of for instance the telephone, or the internal combustion engine,or whatever, seems to be more earth-shattering than err... sliced bread:rolleyes:

 

I did scan sliced bread, but I got wholegrain aliasing...

Edited by jaapv

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Sean, I did know that, but I still find it a funny expression, I mean the invention of for instance the telephone, or the internal combustion engine,or whatever, seems to be more earth-shattering than err... sliced bread:rolleyes:

 

I did scan sliced bread, but I got wholegrain aliasing...

 

You can't eat a telephone or an engine. "Wholegrain aliasing" - that was quick.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Apparently the best thing before sliced bread was llamas. But they are rubbish for making sandwiches.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

You must be using FF Llamas Bill. Cropped Llamas fit in the toaster quite nicely.

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I only buy the crusty ones - they are better at high altitude.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Adan, a great explanation of what we should expect from a full frame digital M.

 

I addressed the same issue here, but chose to put it in the form of a question, with the somewhat provocative aim of uncovering the latent resistance among Leica users, which it seems I did. ))

 

As you say, with a FF DM, be careful what you wish for. It could involve a kit of new lenses.

 

Regards,

M

Edited by markgay

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Sure it's like that for the Summaron 28 ? It's so slightly protruding at the back end... well, I'll try today with the proper cares...

 

Tried... for anyone who can be interested... Summaron 28 is OK on CL: no battery, so couldn't check the meter.

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The sliced bread thing should be banned from this forum as a Leica is much more like unsliced bread, a good -- deadly sharp -- breadknife, knowledge of the theory, and a lot of experience.

 

Why?? Because unsliced bread tastes better!! We do not compromise even if it is much less convenient:D

 

Occasionally losing a few fingers is a minor sacrifice IMHO.

 

Sliced bread was the first "non-slow" food.

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Why does a future full frame Leica M have to accommodate all prior M lenses? I'ld trade up for new design lenses to get full frame. You guys with older lenses can continue to use your M8.

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I already told them how to make a FF M-digital sensor that would accept glancing angle incident rays & they were going to contact Kodak. It is only a matter of time. All you need to do is make a digital sensor that behaves like a film emulsion. This requires some elementary physics, but nothing very challenging.

 

You do not need new lenses.

 

Retrofocus has major disadvantages, distortion, CA, lens size & weight. That is why their new WA lenses are so expensive.

 

Of course maybe their marketing people see a nice strategy to enhance sales. Marketing winning over technology is a well known phenomenon. In that case they will keep us in the dark & will continue to claim that it is not possible.

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I already told them how to make a FF M-digital sensor that would accept glancing angle incident rays... All you need to do is make a digital sensor that behaves like a film emulsion. This requires some elementary physics, but nothing very challenging...

Any link about this technique?

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zeitz: Well, that's the $64,000 question - perhaps literally.

 

If one has a $200 DX Nikkor, and has to get rid of it to move up to an FX Nikon body, and buy a $400 FX lens, it is not that big a deal. It adds 8% to the cost of moving to a full-frame body (less, if you're jumping D2x to D3x).

 

If one has (as I do) a $1,000 Leica 21mm f/2.8, and has to get rid of it to move up to a FF M9, and buy a new $4,500 "FF compatable" 21 f/2.8 - that IS a big deal. It adds 50% to the cost of moving to full-frame - perhaps 120% if one has 2-3 wide-angles.

 

An $8,000 M9 body is a stretch, but I could handle it if that is the only cost involved.

 

An $8,000 M9 body plus a new 21 for $4,500, plus a new 28 for $3,000, plus a new 35 for $2,500...you get the picture.

 

If you have the extra 10 grand lying around - great! I hope you weren't trying to emulate Marie "Let them eat cake!" Antoinette.

 

Personally I think Leica will end up splitting the difference - they are probably taking digital imaging factors into consideration as they design new M lenses (as they are for the S2), but a full-frame M camera will be released only when it is at least acceptably compatable with recent older designs as well. By "acceptably well" I mean pretty close to what a film Nikkor 20 will produce on an D700, with in-camera corrections as needed.

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All you need to do is make a digital sensor that behaves like a film emulsion. This requires some elementary physics, but nothing very challenging.

 

If so elementary and nothing very challenging, it's surprising then that nobody has done it up to now.

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I certainly hope the newer wide-angle lenses (let's assume there's less of a problem for 50mm +) are being designed with digital in mind - which leaves the older 21/24/28/35 lenses as potential problems where some compromise might be required. I would cut Leica some slack if they said that 21mm lens which is a 15 year-old design will not work; I'd be much less forgiving if they said the 21mm Summilux was also a problem, same with the WATE.

 

You only have to look at the performance of these lenses on the Panasonic G1 to see there is indeed a problem which has been addressed in the M8 by the sensor design.

 

It's a holiday weekend here in the UK, so I'm hoping to find the time to test the 24mm Summilux on the G1 to see how it fares, I do not know if Sean Reid included this in his tests.

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It's a holiday weekend here in the UK, so I'm hoping to find the time to test the 24mm Summilux on the G1 to see how it fares, I do not know if Sean Reid included this in his tests.

 

Mark,

 

why do you want to dishonour a nice 24 summilux on a G1?

 

Steve

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Well, a number of us got all enthusiastic about putting M lenses on the G1, my interest was sparked by the ability to sense actual focus and focus through the lens. In the finish, though, the Leica wides disappoint on the G1 because the G1 sensor is not designed to handle them.

 

If the 24mm Summilux, being a newer design, behaves better than, say, the 28mm Summicron which is a pre-digital (or at least pre-Leica digital) design, that might indicate Leica's design criteria for their newer wides include making it easier on the sensor design in a hypothetical full frame M camera. If, on the other hand, the 24mm Summilux turns in the same ho-hum performance on the G1, that might indicate an M9 is so far away as to not be worth doing anything about in the design of new lenses.

 

Lot's of "mights" in there; what we can say is that Leica were not kidding all those years ago when they said a Digital M was going to be difficult with M wides. My $64k question is whether there is, anywhere, a full frame M camera even in a lab or whether any such development is so far in the future as to be shelved for the time being.

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