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To tell the truth, I'll be getting a Leica 18 one of these days, and the correction is one of the reasons :) But I do have the CV15 and when I use it, uncoded, on the m8 (but with a filter) I correct the colour vignette in PS.

 

I thought that would be hard, but with a corrective radial gradient mask it hasn't proven to be that difficult, to tell the truth. Someday I'll get around to trying Corner Fix :)

 

[EDITED thanks to Sean!] I also don't code anything longer than a 28. I've never noticed cooler corners on my 35.

 

As for the M8 being reliable, well, it's far more reliable now than ever before.

 

Leica has fixed power problems (batteries last so much longer now it's not funny), I don't have any shooting problems using RAW (the buffer not fast enough in JPEG IMO) and I used it all last week in Shenzhen, China with very very high humidity and rain (I guess it's the rainy season there right now) and it didn't even blink, even going from very warm and moist conditions to very air-conditioned conditions.

 

There is the occasional annoying power / on -- power / off glitch that, since the last firmware, has required me to pull the battery on occasion. I'm hoping that will be fixed again in the next revision.

Edited by Jamie Roberts
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Guest stnami
It isn't Leica's problem, in that case, it is ours individually.
The old pass the buck , sure makes for a better world

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The old pass the buck , sure makes for a better world

 

Hello Imants,

 

In this case, it isn't passing the buck at all. Does your Pentax correct for Nikon lenses? If we want to experiment with mixing and matching, we need to be empirical about it and figure things out for ourselves.

 

If a Tamron lens doesn't work well on a Canon camera that may not be Canon's problem.

 

I love all kinds of lenses but I don't expect all of them to work without learning the tweaks, etc.

 

You're a bright guy so I'll skip the analogies that clarify this further.

 

I do think the picture is funny. You just need a better example of a "not my job" situation than Leica being responsible for correcting cyan drift on a CV 15.

Edited by sean_reid
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You mean longer? You'll find a find a subject one day where it is noticeable on a 35 or 40.

 

Cheers Jamie

 

Sean--you are correct of course--I'll edit my original if I still can :)

 

But I've never noticed it in practice on the 35 which I use a lot and uncoded too (and the next lens length I have is a 50).

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Sean--you are correct of course--I'll edit my original if I still can :)

 

But I've never noticed it in practice on the 35 which I use a lot and uncoded too (and the next lens length I have is a 50).

 

Hi Jamie,

 

As you know, a lot of subjects will mask cyan drift (and we all have different tolerances for that drift) but it very definitely does exist with 35 and 40 mm lenses. But if you're fine without coding your 35s, that's one less hassle.

 

One can even see cyan drift with a 50 but it is so mild that most people won't care.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Yea the commercial world is exempt from co-operation. That's why it is such a positive spin on the world...............

 

There's some collaboration in the commercial world but I also understand why a Toyota dealer may not know how to fix a Honda.

 

I think you just needed a chance to slip in the funny picture (and it was funny).

 

In all seriousness, do you really think it would be reasonable to ask Leica to research and develop corrections for every RF lens made? Does any camera company do that?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Edited by sean_reid
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...

both of f8 so vignetting should be close to none

 

That's another misconception. Take a look at the "technical data" downloads on the Leica website. Vignetting ceases to depend on aperture below f/5.6 for most wide angle lenses, but it certainly doesn't go to "none."

 

For the WATE at any of its focal lengths, luminance at the corners is down to 44% at f/4, and still reduced to 63-69% when the lens is used at f/5.6 or f/8. For the new 18mm lens, the corner luminance is reduced to 48% wide open and is still down to 55% when the lens is stopped down to f/8. So if you don't want "burned in" corners, some correction is still desireable.

 

scott

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There's some collaboration in the commercial world but I also understand why a Toyota dealer may not know how to fix a Honda.

 

I think you just needed a chance to slip in the funny picture (and it was funny).

 

In all seriousness, do you really think it would be reasonable to ask Leica to research and develop corrections for every RF lens made? Does any camera company do that?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Actually, in an open-source world it would help Leica a lot to make it possible to load custom lens profiles into the camera.

There is really no reason they couldn't allocate a range of codes to 'user defined', and make the cyan vignetting algorithm (or at least its parameterization) public domain so that community members who are able could create custom profiles for non-Leica lenses.

Unfortunately Leica seem to be stuck in the pre-open-source world where it's better to offer less functionality but keep it secret. A firm with Leica's limited resources should be looking to benefit from free community input, they are far from being a Microsoft in the camera world. The sad thing is, this would probably help them out a lot and it would be essentially for free... but I bet they won't do it.

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Actually, in an open-source world it would help Leica a lot to make it possible to load custom lens profiles into the camera.

There is really no reason they couldn't allocate a range of codes to 'user defined', and make the cyan vignetting algorithm (or at least its parameterization) public domain so that community members who are able could create custom profiles for non-Leica lenses.

Unfortunately Leica seem to be stuck in the pre-open-source world where it's better to offer less functionality but keep it secret. A firm with Leica's limited resources should be looking to benefit from free community input, they are far from being a Microsoft in the camera world. The sad thing is, this would probably help them out a lot and it would be essentially for free... but I bet they won't do it.

 

That could be a good point, but I think Leica should better approach the "open source world" in a someway different way: giving to the public the capability to upload some kind of custom-made Software into M8 would be a lot risky: after all, M8 (as all the Digicameras) is NOT a "industry standard" device like a PC... its hardware resources are tightly limited, and there are parts of the cyan vignetting software that have to communicate with other parts of the firmware that must be kept proprietary by definition (for it is managed and updated by Leica itself, and is strictly related to the hardware)... so, a possible "custom made" lens profile could crash when a new fw is installed...or even make the camera hanging on or so...a lot of hassle for everyone... In my opinion, a smart move they could do would be to make available in the Open Source community the lens correction algorhitms so that some other Open Source SW Developer (or even, why not ?, Cosina and/or Zeiss if they agree to be compliant to the Open Source rules) can publish a M8 DNG processor with profiles for certain lenses, or even a "develop your own profile" environment... anyway, something that involves processing OUTSIDE of the M8 hardware : this, basically, is what one can already do playing with various available applications (Cornerfix etc...), but the capability to make it with the same basic alghoritm that Leica uses for its lenses would be a lot appreciated by M8 users, I think.

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Actually, in an open-source world it would help Leica a lot to make it possible to load custom lens profiles into the camera.

There is really no reason they couldn't allocate a range of codes to 'user defined', and make the cyan vignetting algorithm (or at least its parameterization) public domain so that community members who are able could create custom profiles for non-Leica lenses.

Unfortunately Leica seem to be stuck in the pre-open-source world where it's better to offer less functionality but keep it secret. A firm with Leica's limited resources should be looking to benefit from free community input, they are far from being a Microsoft in the camera world. The sad thing is, this would probably help them out a lot and it would be essentially for free... but I bet they won't do it.

 

Hi David,

 

It is an interesting idea but I have some questions:

 

1. Who would handle software/camera support for this?

2. Who would be responsible for the performance of the camera with these lenses?

3. Are you aware of any camera company who has done this successfully?

 

It's intriguing but, in this context, also seems like it could open a Pandora's box.

 

Even if such a system came to be some day, the responsibility for using it successfully would still lie upon us. I'm a strong believer in the role of personal responsibility (generally) and I really do believe that when we start to mix and match combinations (like the M8, CV 15 and filters) we need to find our own way (with help from others doing the same). I don't think we can or should expect Leica to prefab a solution to all of our lens experiments. They try to sort our their lenses with their (branded) filters on their cameras. Beyond that, we need to be creative and do our homework. I have pushed for the lens selection menu for years now but, even then, the menu would only include Leica lenses that they have already designed corrections for. Matching other lenses to a selection on that menu would be our own R&D.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

Edited by sean_reid
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Hi David,

 

It is an interesting idea but some questions:

 

1. Who would handle software/camera support for this?

2. Who would be responsible for the performance of the camera with these lenses?

3. Are you aware of any camera company who has done this successfully?

 

It's intriguing but, in this context, also seems like it could open a Pandora's box.

 

Even if such a system came to be some day, the responsibility for using it successfully would still lie on us. I'm a strong believer in the role of personal responsibility (generally) and I really do believe that when start to mix and match combinations we need to find our own way (with help from others doing the same).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I'm sure they would have to do some work to make it possible. I was thinking the firmware would have a subset of lens codes that direct it to lookup a separate dataset (the custom profiles).

They could provide a tool to take a defined set of custom profiles and patch them into the firmware in a robust way. It could error check the profiles on the way in to ensure no errors.

 

I've never written firmware, but I've written plenty of software. It seems reasonable to me, but I'm happy for any firmware programmers to tell me I'm wrong :)

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Yes, my CV 15 does exactly the same in high-IR light. Even with filter and coding. Make a layer with the right vignetting and feathering, apply Lab colour mode, change the contrast curve in the "a" channel to the correct colourbalance, switch to aRGB again and merge. Three minutes work, if that. Hardly a horror-job I would say. You can even turn it into a mask and use it on all shots, cutting your time down to 15 secs per image. Next time use the WATE.

 

Meh. Fine for CS junkies. Use Cornerfix, it's made to do just that.

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Meh. Fine for CS junkies. Use Cornerfix, it's made to do just that.

Well, yes, there will be some that share your attitude. After all CS is not cheap,and it takes a bit of effort to learn. Cornerfix is fine, it is highly regarded, but I must confess I have little desire or time to break up my workflow for such a rare and simple problem. As Reinier is a pro, I suspect the same goes for him...

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Alan, you've written a lot of posts criticizing this camera. Since you are a busy working photographer, why are you devoting this amount of time and energy to a camera you clearly don't like very much?

 

 

I like it just fine. I'm not criticizing what the camera is capable of, just the hype around it. I used one last weekend. I just don't buy into "the M8 is simple" concept, nor do I feel one could expect it to be simple. Every camera requires a learning curve and it seems to me the M8 has one that is not significantly different from others.

 

It's just that instead of learning which buttons to press for AF and all the various custom settings of a dslr, you have to learn about coding the lenses, using IR filters, possible reflections from those filters, lens selection menus, focusing with the rangefinder, testing your lens and rangefinder for alignment and getting them adjusted if necessary, composing with accessory viewfinders, issues with third party lenses, Cornerfix software, etc. For a simple camera its firmware seems to do some complex alterations to the image that one might need to test and understand. (Depending on the lens, filter and menu setting.)

 

So it doesn't seem so simple to me. Just read all of the posts on here from people who need help and didn't always get it right.

Edited by AlanG
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I have never put a Non Leica Lens on a Leica and I never will. You get what you pay for.

 

Ah if only 'twere true, Richard. But 'tis not. I, too, use mostly Leica lenses. But I do have a few Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses, some at the same focal lengths and speeds as my Leicas. I've found that you would be very, very hard-pressed to distinguish between, say, my 28mm f/2.8 Zeiss Biogon and my 28mm f/2.8 Leica Elmarit. In fact, I'd bet a fine dinner that hardly anyone could. The Zeiss lenses have equally robust construction and have the advantage of having 1/3 stop aperture detents, rather than Leica's 1/2 stop detents.

 

But this is a digression. (I know that this place trives on digression.) The issue here, Richard, is not the lens brands at all; it's the M8's ability to correct an inherent and designed compromise in the sensor's ability to maintain frame-wide color fidelity with wide lenses. Lens coding is essential for giving the camera the information to do so. The M8 doesn't know a Leica lens from a Bagadoughnuts lens. Like the cop in the old Dragnet show used to say, "Just give me the facts m'am." That's all the M8 wants to read from the ass of that lens.

 

You're bound to get the blues from a wide lens with no code.

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I like it just fine. I used one last weekend. I just don't buy into "the M8 is simple" concept, nor do I feel could expect it to be simple. Every camera requires a learning curve and it seems to me the M8 has one that is not significantly different from others.

 

It's just that instead of learning which buttons to press for AF and all the various custom settings of a dslr, you have to learn about coding the lenses, using IR filters, possible reflections from those filters, lens selection menus, focusing with the rangefinder, testing your lens and rangefinder for alignment and getting them adjusted if necessary, composing with accessory viewfinders, issues with third party lenses, Cornerfix software, etc. For a simple camera its firmware seems to do some complex alterations to the image that one might need to test and understand.

 

So it doesn't seem so simple to me. Just read all of the posts on here from people who need help and didn't always get it right.

 

It's a matter of definition, then. My own feeling is that experienced RF photographers may find the M8 quite intuitive. But, yes, RF photography itself has a learning curve.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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