Lasex Posted April 12, 2009 Share #1 Posted April 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some people here have reported having a so called "vertical line problem" with their M8. This is a vertical one pixel wide line which in most cases does not go through the entire picture. I'd like to tell what I found out, maybe just to inform some "digital newbies" like myself. As I am new to digital cameras and was going to buy a M8, I was a little worried about this "vertical line problem"- I thought it affected some M8's due to some sort of quality problem. I did some reading and found out that this is a quite common sensor problem. This one pixel wide vertical line is caused by a hot pixel, which then triggers the pixels next to it in the same line to get "hot" too. Hot pixels are an almost unavoidable feature of todays sensor technology. The best sensors today may have one or some hot pixels as new, and every sensor WILL develop some over time. This is unavoidable. (I read that these pixel defects can be "masked" by repair shops with some firmware based tweaking on some cameras, but that is really another story.) At high ISO setting some pixel may act as a hot pixel, even if it does not act as a hot pixel at lower ISO. Even the temperature of the camera or radio frequency interference from electrical appliances may cause a pixel temporarily to "go hot" and in some cases cause a line in your picture. I have a brand new M8, and I noticed a short line in some of 2500ISO pictures, but not all of them. Now I don't think there is any reason for me to be overly worried about it. If I get more sensor problems during the 2 year warranty period I will certainly send the M8 in for repair. But if I send it in now I will very possibly get it back with a sensor/electronics which may quite well show the same hot pixel problem, either from the start or soon. This is a fact that I must live with, I think. This site has free software which may help some people - as you can see, M8 is (only) :rolleyes:one of the supported cameras: Pixel Fixer | Hot pixel removal utliity Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 12, 2009 Posted April 12, 2009 Hi Lasex, Take a look here "vertical line problem" and digital sensors for newbies from a newbie. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ljclark Posted April 12, 2009 Share #2 Posted April 12, 2009 We are talking about the situation for which Olympus has offered hot pixel mapping in cameras for years -- right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 12, 2009 Share #3 Posted April 12, 2009 Not only Olympus. Some users regard having their cameras pixel mapped from time to time as routine maintenance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted April 12, 2009 Share #4 Posted April 12, 2009 The vertical line has nothing to do with the sensor. It is a result of a malfunction of a component on one of the circuit boards reading the image information out from the sensor. Not all M8's are affected by this problem either. It seems that on affected camera's, the component used in the manufacture was on the low side of the tolerance scale. If you are only having this problem at ISO 2500 and it is only a short line, I would not be too concerned about it. My line was very clearly visible at ISO 160, and extended over about 2/3rds of the image. Keep an eye on it, if it does get worse, send it in for the repair. In terms of hot pixels. Every sensor, including those made by Canon, Nikon, Sony etc, have hot pixels. In fact, there are several hundred of these hot pixels on the sensor - they are mapped out by software so that under normal circumstances you can not see them. From what I understand, it is impossible with current technology to produce a perfect sensor. If you think about it, there are over 10 million pixels on the sensor, so this is a very negligible percentage. There is a quick trick to make the hot pixels visible. Take your camera out at night and mount it on a tripod. Set it to take a long exposure (20 seconds or longer). Once the camera has completed the exposure, it will do another noise canceling exposure, at the same time setting as used in the actual exposure but this time with the shutter closed. Then you will get the preview on the LCD screen. For about 1.5 seconds you will see an image before the noise canceling is applied - here you will see the hot pixels on the sensor - you will be shocked... This problem is not limited to the M8. All camera's, including Canon 1D, 5D, Nikon D3X etc, have this phenomenon. They all remap the sensor using software to eliminate these hot pixels. Andreas 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasex Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted April 12, 2009 The vertical line has nothing to do with the sensor. It is a result of a malfunction of a component on one of the circuit boards reading the image information out from the sensor. I don't think that every vertical line on every M8 is due to the reason you quote to. Do you? Check out the link in my first posting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboerma Posted April 12, 2009 Share #6 Posted April 12, 2009 The vertical line has nothing to do with the sensor. It is a result of a malfunction of a component on one of the circuit boards reading the image information out from the sensor. It has to do with the sensor. I had this problem and send my M8 in and got the sensor replaced. Do a search for "Darn line" to read the stories. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted April 12, 2009 Share #7 Posted April 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) This problem is not limited to the M8. All camera's, including Canon 1D, 5D, Nikon D3X etc, have this phenomenon. They all remap the sensor using software to eliminate these hot pixels. What you described sounds like the mapping that is done under a noise reduction process for long exposures -- the two-shot process. I know for a fact that Olympus has a selection in their menus called "Pixel Mapping" that they recommend be used about once a year. This is for a permanent "record" for the camera and is intended to provide a correction using data from surrounding pixels. That said, I don't read much in the Olympus descriptions about the streak. The Pixel Mapping that Olympus allows is what some other manufacturers require a shop visit to fix. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted April 12, 2009 Share #8 Posted April 12, 2009 There is a quick trick to make the hot pixels visible. Take your camera out at night and mount it on a tripod. Set it to take a long exposure (20 seconds or longer). Once the camera has completed the exposure, it will do another noise canceling exposure, at the same time setting as used in the actual exposure but this time with the shutter closed. Then you will get the preview on the LCD screen. For about 1.5 seconds you will see an image before the noise canceling is applied - here you will see the hot pixels on the sensor - you will be shocked... Andreas That statement is a little false. The hot pixels you see after a 20 second exposure are not really the hot pixels that may be in every sensor. They are caused by the sensor being on for that length of time and getting hot itself. This is true for all digital cameras. If your statement was totally true you would see the same number of hot pixels at a 2-3-4-5-6 second exposure as you do at a 20 second exposure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasex Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share #9 Posted April 12, 2009 Did more reading on this subject. I learned that an intermittently (at high ISOs/long exposures) appearing vertical line in fact represents a CCD artefact called blooming. This is caused by a pixel which has too high electrical charge and this leaks then to the next pixels in the same vertical column of pixels. If I understood it right the pixel where the line gets started may be 1) a permanently defect so called "hot pixel" (either visible in images or not, if it has been "hidden" by software in the camera), or, 2) a "nearly hot" pixel, which gets overcharged easier than normal pixels in the same sensor, or, 3) a normal pixel temporarily malfunctioning due to external influence (high temperature, radio frequency interference etc). Interesting stuff. I had scratches sometimes on my 35mm films, too, but that was easier to understand Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 12, 2009 Share #10 Posted April 12, 2009 I think it would be nice if Leica explained what actually causes this problem and what they do to solve it and keep it from coming back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted April 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted April 13, 2009 I think it would be nice if Leica explained what actually causes this problem and what they do to solve it and keep it from coming back. They change out the sensor. It can come back at any time and will need to have the sensor changed again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasex Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted April 13, 2009 Here one Nikon owner with same problem telling and showing pictures of it. http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1341/dsc5547gg5.jpg Red pixel + red line? - Nikon dSLR - Digital SLR Cameras - Steves-digicams.com Forums He has a visible hot pixel where the line originates. If in another camera you only see a line but no hot pixel at the end of it, I guess there still might be a hot pixel - one that has been hidden with software tweaking before the camera left factory. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Philpotts Posted April 15, 2009 Share #13 Posted April 15, 2009 Last week's hot pixel has now become this week's vertical line. Advice from my local dealer was to return the camera to Leica for repair. When I phoned MK they confirmed that the sensor would be changed under warranty. I have just said goodbye to the M8 for five weeks, luckily I still have the D-Lux 4. Regards Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted April 16, 2009 Share #14 Posted April 16, 2009 The term "Vertical Line Problem" was originally used to describe a problem where the M8 displayed a vertical line that bisected the image. On my camera it generally extended some way up from the bottom of the image, precisely in the middle. I believe Leica have said that this issue was caused by a fault on the circuit board and not the sensor itself. It had nothing to do with hot pixels as I recall. There are of course other 'vertical lines' that have appeared on M8 images. These are not in the middle of the image, and may be related to hot pixels (although I don't know this for sure). In both cases the line is vertical, however the former is a relatively common and well known issue with the M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caparobertsan Posted April 16, 2009 Share #15 Posted April 16, 2009 The vertical line has nothing to do with the sensor. tHAT IS NOT TRUE! My m8 was sent again and came back after 5 weeks! It was ccd fault. They had replaced sensor for 2nd time. I think Kodak is responsible for this. By the way discreet mode works great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasex Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted April 16, 2009 I have had the line or sometimes even two lines in some shots at high ISO. The line typically starts at an "edge", a transition line between dark and light. Yesterday I did some testing at high ISO in local church, with plenty of this kind of dark-light transitions (windows, spots of light) - no lines in the pictures at all. One difference I can think of between the circumstances where I have got the line or not, is temperature: when I took the shots in the church the camera was cold, about 10 degrees Celsius. When I got the lines, it was certainly more than 24 degrees Celsius. Temperature affects CCDs, so could this be one explanation? I don't believe that any lines are caused by a circuit board defect alone, I guess that the line is created by the CCD. Whether the circuit board attached to the CCD has some circuits designed to filter out this kind of line, and that these circuits might be defective in some M8s, that I do not know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 16, 2009 Share #17 Posted April 16, 2009 The only red line I ever had was a horizontal one - Top righthand of the image, associated with a hot pixel. Two consecutive shots. It showed up in the C1 preview,disappeared in RAW conversion and has not reappeared for over 18 months. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasex Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share #18 Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I now repeatedly have noticed that when my camera was cold after having been shooting outdoors there was no line even at 2500 ISO. When the camera is at normal room temperature, the line appears. In my opinion this proves that it is a sensor problem and not something else. Edited April 18, 2009 by Lasex Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
el fotografo Posted April 18, 2009 Share #19 Posted April 18, 2009 I had two lines from iso 640 up, one in the exact center of the frame from top to bottom and a shorter one on the far left edge. I had the sensor replaced under warranty and the camera upgraded at the same time. Leica NJ had it for about 6 weeks because of the upgrade and it now works fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill Posted December 14, 2022 Share #20 Posted December 14, 2022 Hello! I am having my first battle with vertical lines showing up on my digital photos. I was taking some Christmas pictures for a client and my camera started to act up… wasn’t loading the image and would freeze so I was taking my battery in/out to snap a few. And now I have this on all of the images from this session as well as some that are straight blocked vibrant colours with some lines as well. I am going to take her in to be given a once over at my local spot but my question is can I edit these lines out or make them less noticeable? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/81981-vertical-line-problem-and-digital-sensors-for-newbies-from-a-newbie/?do=findComment&comment=4598945'>More sharing options...
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