new shape Leica

[Mike Rawcs]

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Well, this has been interesting. I was surprised that so many of you would welcome change of some sort. Many said something like " Leave the shape as it is er, well, perhaps just adding x would be alright".

 

The suggestions of a la carte or dual versions of a future M, one traditional and one amended make sense to me. I rather favor a la cart, in that it would allow Leica to put camera designs out for consideration and find out what people would actually buy before putting something into full-scale production with all its attendant cost and risk.

 

So how about it Leica? You have a website where you could post design mock-ups for viewers to vote for or against. You could even use the a la carte "build your own leica" concept to allow viewers to mix and match components and see which component-mix is most popular.

 

This would be a very popular and cost-effective piece of consumer research that would be innovative enough to be newsworthy to newspapers, lifestyle magazines and, of course, photography magazines and websites.

 

Free research and free publicity? Sounds o.k. to me.

 

Thanks and best wishes to all who replied,

 

Mike.

[jaapv]

Actually, it looks to me like a lefty shutter release adapter. You have no idea how many people have asked me over the years if anyone makes a left-handed camera.

 

David

 

Spot-on David. I suspect it would work with the M8, although it was built for LTM cameras. Unfortunately I am not about to buy one for experimentation. For one thing I am not left-handed, and one of these will set you back over 1500$...

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[reventlow]

In the hope that Leica look at this forum, I'd like to make a plea for a more ergonomic Leica M. I know, shock-horror change the shape!

 

Yes, change the shape. It doesn't have to be radical - please; no R8 departure! Just a little-more fitting to the hand. Leica have already acknowledged that hand-held photography could be improved by the introduction of the M-grip: a more-ugly piece of engineering I have yet to see.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mike.

 

If you want to change the M choose another camera it is a free market.

I have used M's since 1967 and not once been let down and they

work seemingly perfectly within their design parameters. Hard to

improve on that.

Richard

[AlanG]

If you want to change the M choose another camera it is a free market.

I have used M's since 1967 and not once been let down and they

work seemingly perfectly within their design parameters. Hard to

improve on that.

Richard

 

This reminds me of the "Soup Nazi" on an episode of the Seinfeld show. How many like minded people do you think you represent? The world of Leica enthusiasts willing to steadily shell out big bucks may simply not be large enough.

 

Yeah, why should Leica consider making models that might appeal to more people and make a profit? What if one person's idea of an ideal camera is a more modern digital rangefinder camera? Who is making that? I bet if Nikon or Canon came out with a really modern small rangefinder system, it would kill Leica. But maybe there isn't much market for that either, except by Leica.

 

You could improve on it by extending the features so that they'll have a bigger design parameter and appeal to more photographers.

 

Richard, did you ever consider that if Leica made a more modern and more versatile rangefinder camera perhaps they would sell enough to be profitable? (Let's say it has live view and a clip on EVF in addition to a more modern rangefinder mechanism, maybe it has AF, perhaps it's smaller and lighter.) That way they could at least continue making some kind of digital rangefinder camera and maybe also keep the one that you like in production.

 

Do you think droves of people are going to wake up in the next couple of years and say, "I could have had an M8?" So how is Leica going to justify keeping this in production indefinitely if sales don't increase and debts rise further? Will a simple periodic upgrade to the sensor and basic electronics be enough to keep new models selling?

 

Hopefully they are doing some things at Leica to perhaps reduce costs, increase sales, turn in a profit and you'll be safe for a while. I don't know. But a lack of change has not been a successful strategy for any reasonably sized camera company that I can think of. Remember what Sam Cooke said," A change is gonna come."

 

Even something as simple as M&M candy has new products and new marketing ideas. You can go on line and print special custom greetings on the candy and get special packaging. You can even print photos on them. Think of how that company is using technology to be imaginative and satisfy the wants of its customers.

http://www.mymms.com/

 

Of course it is easy to not change anything.

Edited April 11, 2009 by AlanG

[zlatkob]

Alan, I agree with you 100%. You said it better than I could.

[AlanG]

Alan, I agree with you 100%. You said it better than I could.

 

Well it's nice to know there is one other person.

[lars_bergquist]

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Two other persons. I hope there are more of us still.

 

There was lots of angry screaming like the above posts when the M3 was introduced. Enough to make Ernst Leitz introduce the IIIg four years after the M3. But the outcome was that the market was the people who loved the M cameras, and not the screw thread people. For the M3 was the first really user-friendly camera Leitz made, and that fact told in the not too long run. The IIIg was made for just two years, then the whole LTM line died a quiet death.

 

The old man from the Age of the M3--and the M2--another heresy!

[KM-25]

Since making great photographs is more important for me than gear speculation, I look forward to seeing what Leica does next but don't really care one way or the other, I have the Leica toolkit I will need for the rest of my life.

 

And while I think some things can be improved on the M body, I like the way they are right now. I have two M3's, an M6TTL and a MP3 and they all fit in the same narrow slots in my bags. The packing ergonomics of the Leica M are outstanding, almost militaristic. Except for the advance lever, they don't have much in the way of odds and ends sticking out to catch on things and you could practically stack lensless M bodies like a deck of cards.

 

The Leica M is distinctly recognizable in it's appearance, it functions perfectly for what it is designed to do and I just can't fault the things, they work great. I do nearly 100% people photography with Leica M bodies and the look always gives me some form of cache in situations where the "Who are you, who are you shooting for?" questions can be a stumbling block.

 

I guess since it is going to take a lot for me to buy an M digital, I really don't think about what is next too much. What ever Leica does, I hope they do well with it and they stay in business.

Edited April 12, 2009 by KM-25

[JeffWright]

Well it's nice to know there is one other person.

 

Plus one more. Spot on.

 

And I'm sorry, the removable base plate is a weakness, not a strength.

Edited April 12, 2009 by braindeadmac
typo

[Mike Rawcs]

Alan "That way they could at least continue making some kind of digital rangefinder camera and maybe also keep the one that you like in production." - spot-on.

 

My personal opinion is that the M8 was released warts-and-all simply because Leica couldn't wait any longer: they needed money coming in and quickly.

 

I really wish Leica well and hope that they feel confident enough to bring the M series up-to-date as a result of posts such as this.

 

Mike.

[ChrisC]

If you want to change the M choose another camera...... M's....work seemingly perfectly......

 

Richard - Only your third post on a forum and already you show dismissiveness for opinion that doesn't agree with yours; not a great start.

 

Alan, I agree with you 100%. You said it better than I could.

 

Alan, add me to the 'one more' group, and you replied far more politely than I would have been tempted to reply. I think that as users and contributors to LUF our default position is to enjoy the camera for what it does well and begrudgingly tolerate the things we dislike. But to suggest that a fantastic design solution for half century ago remains perfect for now is frankly ridiculous.

 

............... Chris

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Chris.

 

>>But to suggest that a fantastic design solution for half century ago remains perfect for now is frankly ridiculous

 

Agree that there is room for improvements.. however coffee cups have proven pretty well-designed so have naglene water bottles. Im kind of happy keeping the M simple, but agree, things can be improved.. for starters lets get a better optional handgrip.

 

.

[AlanG]

Chris.

 

>>But to suggest that a fantastic design solution for half century ago remains perfect for now is frankly ridiculous

 

Agree that there is room for improvements.. however coffee cups have proven pretty well-designed so have naglene water bottles. Im kind of happy keeping the M simple, but agree, things can be improved.. for starters lets get a better optional handgrip.

 

.

 

What people expect from a coffee cup is the same now as it ever was. Pencils still work well, but that didn't stop the development of the typewriter and then the word processor. What many people expect from a camera in 2009 is much different from what they expected from one in 1954. The camera is not the goal. Consider that Leica is not actually in the camera making business. They are in the business of providing tools to help photographers create photographs.

 

Here is my list for the significant or breakthrough camera designs of the past 100 years or so:

 

Speed Graphic, Leica screw mount cameras, Rolleiflex, Leica M3, Hasselblad 500C, Sinar standard, Nikon F, Nikon D1, Canon 1Ds.

 

At the time many shooters considered these nearly perfect and felt that was all they would ever need. (The exceptions being that everyone knew that the digital cameras would be rapidly improved.)

 

Now consider that Sinar models have evolved, as have Nikons, Hasselblads, and Canons. Speed Graphics are pretty much obsolete and the twin lens Rollei also. (Of course some people still use them.)

 

As far as I can see, the Leica M8 represents the only current digital camera that does not show much evolution from the original breakthrough design. But maybe Nikon could have stuck with the F for all these years (but how big a company would they be?) and Sinar didn't have to introduce the Sinar P. And Hasselblad still makes a "V" camera similar to the 500C - but its sales now are probably mostly from the H system.

 

I know that Leica has many very loyal supporters who don't want to see major changes in the M system. But from a business point of view, is this a viable concept to employ long term?

Edited April 12, 2009 by AlanG

[KM-25]

I know that Leica has many very loyal supporters who don't want to see major changes in the M system. But from a business point of view, is this a viable concept to employ long term?

 

We can ask this all we want, but what Leica ultimately does is Leicas business, we don't really have a say in it. So the best thing we can do is to strive to be the best photographers we can given tools we have which are plenty in my opinion.

 

All speculating does is frame us up as a gear head, not an artist.

 

If you really wanted a solid profile on what people want from the next M, you would have to engage them in a poll that would hit every market, not just the people on this forum.

Edited April 13, 2009 by KM-25

[zlatkob]

KM-25, you're right that we don't have a say in it in the literal sense. It is solely Leica's business. And yet, I would think that a forum such as this provides a little extra market research for decision-makers at Leica. Even if threads are about evenly divided between pro-change and anti-change opinions, that may still be a bit of useful market data. For example, it may support a decision to produce two concurrent but differing digital M models.

 

I don't think that expressing a desire for improved tools labels one as a gearhead. Artists can be very picky about their tools, and can have very specific technical desires. Artists do have to make do with what they have, but it's fair and perhaps valuable to express desires for future developments.

 

At the same time, it's evident that Leica's market includes a wide array of users, of which artists are just one portion. The group of buyers and potential buyers includes gearheads and others. Decision-makers may value the opinions of gearheads too.

[Mike Rawcs]

KM-25 "We can ask this all we want, but what Leica ultimately does is Leicas business, we don't really have a say in it." - not quite so - Leica can make what they like but we, as customers, don't have to buy it.

 

This is probably why the Leica M has not evolved; Leica don't want to alienate their loyal customer base. Rather caught between a rock and a hard place don't you think? You don't want to lose current customers but you are not attracting new customers. The Leica dilemma.

 

If Leica use a la carte, or the software currently available to build your own a la cart Leica - updated to allow customers to choose new M features they will get valuable information about what potential users will buy.

 

Anyone from Leica want to add anything here?

 

Best wishes,

 

Mike.

[lars_bergquist]

To me, a Leica M is not a nostalgic fetish. And it is not a piece of bling-bling for the stinking rich. It is a craft tool, and if I can see possibilities of easily doable improvements, then I regard it as legitimate to ask for them. So I reiterate:

 

"The M8 feels like a M5. Clumsy. The reason is the increased 'gripping depth'. I know that the total front flange-to-cover glass distance probably cannot be reduced, but that is immaterial--it is the bulk held by the right hand that should be reduced to approximately M6 dimensions. It would of course be nice if the height of the body could be M6-ized too, but that is a cosmetic and not an ergonomic matter."

 

"Second, if you look at a M8 from above, you will see that the front right curve of the body is singularly unsuited for gripping. The only thing worse that I have encountered is a Kine Exakta ... This should be rectified. Further improvement would come from an optional finger grip, moulded to fit the body contour and held by one or two screws fitting into discreet black bushings. A number of my old OM cameras had that feature and it worked like a charm. And fundamentalists could simply ignore it."

 

This is just the form factor. There are other things that are even more urgent: Weather safety--larger battery capacity, possibly by an accessory battery pack--quick AE-lock for a sequence of exposures, by a lever under the shutter dial--external ISO dial--ability to use flash even with a finder in the accessory shoe--to name just a few. All this would make the M a more useable camera, without detracting from its good points.

 

Some of the 'changenothingists' would have been among the wailers and doomsayers when the wet plates went out. Leica cannot miss every bus every time, and survive. So get your collective arse off the wagon and get a move on!

 

The old man from the Age of Glass Plate Negatives

[AlanG]

This is just the form factor. There are other things that are even more urgent: Weather safety--larger battery capacity, possibly by an accessory battery pack--quick AE-lock for a sequence of exposures, by a lever under the shutter dial--external ISO dial--ability to

 

Unless CCDs use so much more power than CMOS, I think with more integrated electronics, the current battery would be adequate. The 5DII gets a lot of shots per battery.

 

Just joking here but a self timer lever could have been used for the AE lock and an MP style rewind knob could have been used to set the ISO. So Leica actually missed keeping the design very traditional.

 

I know nobody want to here this, but the biggest thing that could be done to make the M more versatile and more precise would be to add live view.

[lars_bergquist]

Yes! I forgot live view! Just the right thing for my BEEON! And for astrophotography!

 

The old man again

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[KM-25]

I think Leica should conduct a survey via either email or direct mail. That way, all demographics are covered.

 

Otherwise, this is just another one of those threads with a small demographic represented.