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cme4brain

Please keep me from selling the M8 for a Nikon D40

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There is nearly a pattern to these discussions that involves subjective reasoning. It's the same when someone asks film or digital, full frame or not full frame and Leica or a D40.

 

A lot of times, people are simply looking for their subjective reasoning to back up their claims, so they don't honestly *look* for the answers in other areas, they subconsciously aren't really interested. Obviously, many people here get great results from the M8 and Leica glass, so in looking for what they wanted in the gear, they found it.

 

But if someone is looking for any reason they can think of to part with the M8 and just shoot a D40, then they are going to find every reason one could imagine to do just that and they will be right in that decision too.

 

Two of the biggest problems with the internet in terms of these discussions are either that a person's word is worth nothing with out 100% crops and the flip side of that being what does the arm chair expert / prolific poster's work look like?

 

There are so many ways to look at this like, "It's not the car, it's the driver" or "A great race car driver will win the race with the better car".

 

If someone told me I had to shoot a job with a D40 and a kit lens, I would find a way to make the most of it, but I would rather have my Leica..:-)

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Do as you must. if you are to own only one camera, then a Nikon DSLR

is the way to go. I have been a Nikon owner for 30+ years and I love them. I currently own and use a D300.

But,.....if you want a lighter more compact fast "street" camera with really superior optics to carry around, the M8 is the ticket. That is why I own one. Leicas were designed with the street shooter or journalist in mind beginning with the late 1920's. Leicas and rangefinders in general are a state of mind. You either like them or you don't. Both quality DSLR's and rangefinder cameras take excellent pictures.

 

Good luck with your decision.

Edited by jevidon
typo

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My conclusion seems to be that I can tell virtually no objective difference between these 100% crops. That thought tells me that a 6MP amateur DSLR with a $100 kit lens at f/8 is pretty daggone comparable to my $5000 10MP M8, at least in this example. If that is true, then why pay for the Leica?

 

If you can't see the superiority of the Leica objectively, then you need to convince yourself that it's there. Try repeating it aloud in various threads on Leica forums. Try talking down to people who don't use Leica, implying that they aren't discriminating enough. Soon you'll find yourself looking at your Leica shots and marveling at their glow. It's worked for thousands, it'll work for you too.

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The superiority question in the context of putting a 300mm lens on a Leica M is silly.

 

Well DUH!!!

 

If you would read the thread, my original post stated:

 

I have a pair of D300s. I use them to shoot sports, and also for static shots (such as photos for eBay sales). Ain't no way that anything hanging off the front of an M8 is going to be superior to a nice Nikon 300 f/2.8 AF. And an SLR for technical, set-piece work is just plain convenient.

 

But the M8 strips away a lot of the ancillary technical crap that seems to be inseparable from current DSLRs. With less technical factors to worry about, I concentrate more on the image. Also, I like the fact that whoever designed my lenses -- Leica, Cosina, or Zeiss -- understood that I plan on using them wide open from time to time.

 

To which a response from redbaron was:

 

I find this assertion quite amazing: "Ain't no way that anything hanging off the front of an M8 is going to be superior to a nice Nikon 300 f/2.8 AF."

 

Exactly what do you mean by "superior"? I have that lens, and while it is indeed well made, it doesn't come close to any of my Leica M lenses. In build quality, contrast, speed or sharpness. Is there another factor?

 

I was trying to make the point -- which some here managed to decipher -- that my usage of DSLRs and the M8 was different. The DSLR works very well with long lenses for sports and that is a usage for which an M8 would essentially useless...And I much prefer the M8 for other tasks.

 

(I'm just waiting for someone to suggest I use a Visoflex with the M8 for sports...)

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(I'm just waiting for someone to suggest I use a Visoflex with the M8 for sports...)

 

Well, I can attest it is somewhat cumbersome, but I did use a Novoflex 400 with a Visoflex extensively for wildlife and it did work -but I wouldn't if my income depended on it....Otoh I would use an Apo Telyt 280/4.0 and DMR and never think of Nikon

Edited by jaapv

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... (I'm just waiting for someone to suggest I use a Visoflex with the M8 for sports...)

No, I think that the Visoflex (with long lenses) would be difficult to use for sports shots, so I'm surprised that you're waiting for someone to suggest it.

 

Pete.

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I am astounded that this kind of pixel peeping and insecure "please securize me, people" post is coming from an adult like you seem to be on your avatar.

Maybe I'm simply fooled by the stache, though.

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"I would like an objective opinion about the photographs to hopefully tell me of some photographic principle I am missing!"

 

Photographic principle 1: Most cameras/lenses are equally good at f/8 in sunlight - f/1, f/1.4, and f/2 are where the rubber meets the road.

 

Take your kit lens at whatever its widest aperture is - and a Nikon prime at that aperture will eat it for lunch (and a c/v prime, and a Leica prime). Take your kit lens at its widest aperture, in light that requires 1/60 sec. @ f/1.4 ( = 1/8 sec. @ f/4.0) - and a subject that is actually interesting - like people moving. Then any camera with a fast prime will eat it for dinner - and have leftovers for a doggie bag.

 

Photographic principle 2: Downsampling an image to match a smaller file aims for the lowest common denominator. An image from a $20,000, 39Mpixel digital back will also not look much better than a D40 image if downsized to 6 Mpixels.

 

You end up with identical 100% pixel crops from a 6Mp and a 10Mp camera? Did you dumb down the Leica by downsampling it - or did you upsample the D40 picture to the size of the M8 image?

 

Photographic principle 2 (a): If the 100% crops look identically detailed, then the camera with more pixels will allow a larger print at the same pixels-per-inch resolution, or a more detailed print at the same size.

 

i.e. at 200 ppi, 6 Mpixels allows a 10" x 15" print, and 10 Mpixels from the M8 (or whatever) allows a 13.1" x 19.1" print (or a 10 x 15 at 260 ppi).

Edited by adan

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Do as you must. if you are to own only one camera, then a Nikon DSLR

is the way to go. I have been a Nikon owner for 30+ years and I love them. I currently own and use a D300.

But,.....if you want a lighter more compact fast "street" camera with really superior optics to carry around, the M8 is the ticket. That is why I own one. Leicas were designed with the street shooter or journalist in mind beginning with the late 1920's. Leicas and rangefinders in general are a state of mind. You either like them or you don't. Both quality DSLR's and rangefinder cameras take excellent pictures.

 

Good luck with your decision.

 

I agree with this post. I have an M8 and a Nikon D3 and I use them according to their strengths. They are both excellent cameras! I also have Sony 300 for portable use.

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Well, I can attest it is somewhat cumbersome, but I did use a Novoflex 400 with a Visoflex extensively for wildlife and it did work -but I wouldn't if my income depended on it....Otoh I would use an Apo Telyt 280/4.0 and DMR and never think of Nikon

 

For nature work, sometimes AF isn't all that hot an idea. If you are trying to pick a critter out of a cluttered background and/or foreground, the AF can be fighting you. Unless the critters were really active on a pretty clear tableau, a really good MF lens would have advantages over a merely good AF.

 

I started shooting sports zone focusing with a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 press camera more than a few years back. Now the "expectations" for field sports "demand" a different set of gear. I suppose I could use the M8 for when soccer players are very close in, but I'm already juggling two DSLRs at the same time.

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At 1/250th, f8, static subject, good light, low ISO, 50mm, and small print or screen display, it doesn't matter what you use from an IQ perspective.

 

What you are paying for as you move up the price ladder is usually the ability to get good IQ under more difficult conditions such as moving subject, f2, poor light, high ISO etc.

 

You also pay for size, handling qualities etc. which are the virtues of the m8.

 

Under the conditions you described, there would be no discernible difference between your d40 / kit lens and a D3 (x or otherwise ) with Nikons professional glass. I assure you that under more difficult conditions, or for large prints, there is no comparison.

 

I own and regularly use Leica M8, Nikon D300, D3, D3x, D700. I am rarely ambivalent as to which to take if I know the subject and conditions.

 

Regards ... Harold

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No, I think that the Visoflex (with long lenses) would be difficult to use for sports shots, so I'm surprised that you're waiting for someone to suggest it.

 

Pete.

 

Indeed it is difficult, but doable. One of the main reasons I love rangefinder is that I see exactly what is happening during the moment of exposure, can't say that for SLRs. With the Visoflex that black-out period is even more pronounced, whether it was set to yellow or black dot. The finger travel is also quite extended unless you use a shutter release cable.

 

Below is a shot from an indoor ice hockey game, Viso III, Telyt 560/6.8 wide open.

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If you really have to ask yourself this question then a Leica M rangefinder is not for you.

Sell it and move on, down, over, out.

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Ok; My wife has a 4mp Olympus digital, 10 years old, and still going strong; i have a digilux 2, M6, R7, amongst others. we go out together, and shoot together; the crunch comes when i print out his'n hers side by side. I have to say, I agree with you wholeheartedly; we have had to call in my daughter, also a pro photographer, to see if she can see the difference between leica digital and the Olympus; short story- ruddy near impossible. I have proved this at photo competitions- If you can get results like that from the Nikon, I certainly wouldn't waist $5000 on the M8 !!!

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A lot of pseudo-bashing of CV lenses... Well, kind of suggesting that using a CV lens is inferior to a leica lens...

 

Might be the case, but...

 

Certain CV lenses are just freakin' stellar. Which most people know. But I just want to point out to anyone who looks down on them cause they aren't Leica or are "cheap" -- You should try a few.

 

The CV 35 1.2, new 28 2, 50 1.5 - just great, great lenses. And, yes, cheap, by comparison.

--Rob (sticking up his cheap lenses

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A lot of pseudo-bashing of CV lenses... Well, kind of suggesting that using a CV lens is inferior to a leica lens...

 

Might be the case, but...

 

Certain CV lenses are just freakin' stellar. Which most people know. But I just want to point out to anyone who looks down on them cause they aren't Leica or are "cheap" -- You should try a few.

--Rob (sticking up his cheap lenses

 

You are right.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Don't sell...

 

As Rick might have said:

 

"...you'll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life."

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this thread is awesome!

 

first we get Helplessly Hoping and now Casablanca.

 

(and, no, i'm not being facetious. i truly adore both!)

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