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Guest John66

Great cameras, but...

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I understand what you are saying, but this seems to be what amateurs really enjoy doing now days is taking stabs at pros without taking all of them and their work into consideration.

 

Also consider that a lot of pros, my self included absolutely LOVE assigned work, someone gives you a need, shot list or an idea and you get to rise to the challenge. Ultimately, you are *still* calling the shot, but you have been given a challenge. Over the years, this adds up to a greater awareness of what makes a good shot or not.

 

It think it is really funny how amateurs will take workshops, buy how to CD's, books, brag about buying pro gear and log onto sites and get all of that information they seem to need and then turn around and make it out to be that pros don't enjoy photography as much as an amateur does. It's often a cop out and it just reeks of envy.

 

I'm sure you love what you do, but I would never trade what I do for anything, because I get to live photography, travel, climb mountains, snowboard, meet presidents and actors all because of the life I have chosen. And to give you an idea of how this came to be, I had to really work hard for it, did not get to go to school for it and I was even homeless at age 15.

 

Many pros did not take up photography because they saw it as a fun job, they do it because they have no choice, it is who they are.

 

But the fact remains, if you want to be better at anything, you have to try harder and surround your self with those who are better than you and expose your self to that work. When I attend Look3 or Perpignan, it is not really to hear how good my work is, it is a lot more to do with me wanting the best in the world to rip me a new one, otherwise a false sense of security can set in.

 

But that is me and I will be pushing hard to make my mark in this life until I am pushing up daisies...

 

I didn't say there wasn't good pro work out there. There is. There's a lot of good amateur work out there too. If you look in the right places

 

 

 

Ha thanks for the lecture. The pros who have 'made it' do get to call a lot of the shots. I'm defining professional as someone who makes money from their photography, since, well that's what the word means. And a lot of pros, be they newspaper photographers, wedding photographers, whatever, don't get to call the shots. I'm sure their are a lot more of those types than the ones who actually get to say, "I wanna go shoot this project."

 

As far as the other thing, I didn't say superior. Don't put words in my mouth. It goes both ways. I get to shoot what I want, when I want. I also have the choice not to shoot if I don't want to, because my paycheck doesn't depend on it. I get to travel the world too for work and get to take pictures all over the place too. And if I feel like taking lunch, the afternoon, a day, or a week off to go take photos, I can.

 

Some amateurs (myself included) are quite happy with how photography fits into their life, and how their job fits into their life, and how the two are separate. Just because I recognize that I have high job satisfaction AND happiness with my hobbies doesn't mean I'm trying to rationalize why photography isn't my career.

 

What I did say, was that the pro/amateur distinction doesn't ultimately say anything about the quality of the work.

Edited by KM-25

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I agree with that. Not all amateurs do it though. Not all pros do it either

That's why I defined pros as those who make money from it, not those who have a certain outlook towards it. And nowadays, it seems like there are a lot of shitty pros out there. After all, many think that owning a DSLR makes them a wedding photographer now. A lot more goes into it than that, which is exactly why I've turned down some of those offers - I don't want to deal with the hassle.

 

I think we can both agree that there are a lot of photographers out there, whether they make money from it or not, who don't put a lot of feeling into their work and just like to buy the latest thing for bragging rights.

 

I'm sure you've worked hard to get where you are. A lot of us have worked just as hard, if not harder, to get where we are too. And what you say about amateurs might be true for some, it's not true for all. I have absolutely no desire to make a living from photography. I know it can be a lot of work, and personally for me, I like my current satisfaction/work ratio in photography.

Edited by tgray

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Second troll thread in two days, and it gets more response than the informational threads What happened? Full moon, or did the pot just need stirring?

No, it needs to be smoked.

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Just publicly questioning my reasons for buying what is undoubtedly a beautiful camera.

 

Thanks for many of your helpful responses.

Isn't that in itself a reason?

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Dropping into this thread late, but a feature that doesn't seem to have been mentioned (and I've read the other posts) is that the M8 has a) had problems and

has quirks. For me the value of the forum is the huge level of support that you can get from a very knowledgable group of people. Issues that have been resolved for me recently have ranged from getting the best deal on equipment insurance to what the coding on a Zeiss 18mm should look like. In the earlier days when we were dealing with the nightmare of IR colour problems and sudden-death-syndrome the forum was an essential beacon for the early adopters.

 

Sure, it has its ups and downs - there was a period a month back when the forum[/I] was boring - not the photos. But thanks to those who are willing to stick their necks out and those who have interesting and useful knowledge to share it still feels worth coming back to.

 

Completely agree with others that generally speaking you don't come to the M8 section to see the best shots - we're usually sharing the ones that don't work here! Look elswhere for the showcases of the ones we're proud of...

 

Just my 2 penn'orth,.

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Guest malland

As others have said, this is a technical forum and, as I have been reminded several times, posting pictures here is discouraged. Others have mentioned the People Section of the Photography Forum here has many good pictures; but, looking at the People Section, I see that on page 2 of the thread list there are only 110-310 views per thread — and I'm taking page 2 as an example because page 1 has even less.

 

As an experiment I started on March 11 the same thread on the Photography Forum and on the M8/8.2 Section of the Rangefinder Forum: to date the former has 6 replies and 197 views (all of the "great capture!" variety) while the latter has 73 replies and 2,420 views. Here are the two threads:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/technology-industry/79998-bmw-motorbike-ralph-gibson-grain-shadow.html

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70991

 

As you can see, there is really little incentive to post on the Photo Forum, which possibly is too fragmented in to sections. The other alternative would be stop discouraging the posting of pictures of the M8 forum, but we've been over this ground before...

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Noir©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

Edited by malland

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I love a heated discussion like this one but must say that in the Photo-Pages of this site there are some really excellent photo's to be found ....

 

Seems to be a totally different lot of people posting there, people that don't often, or at all post comments in the respective camera fora's.

 

Then some people that do post here have a link to their collection either on an own site or flickr or so. Some of these collection are well worth a visit as well.

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Keep in mind that if Leicas had live view the photos would be a lot better.

 

I'm a pro and I have spoken and judged at a lot of camera clubs. I've seen some wonderful photography from amateurs. I'll be the first to say that a lot of my images are boring - they serve the needs of my clients but I wouldn't show them to anyone else.

 

The biggest problem I see with amateur photos on the net is lack of editing. Don't post a photo until it has sat around a while (for your excitement to die down) and become brutal at editing. Sometimes I have to turn to others to edit my work as I'm not always so objective.

 

When I show a portfolio to potential clients, if I don't hear positive feedback about an image after a few showings, I remove it. I remember hearing a famous photographer say that early in her career she went to Magnum and looked through Cartier Bresson's contact sheets. She felt that a lot of his images were awful, and concluded she might have a chance as a photographer after all.

Edited by AlanG

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I'll be the first to say that a lot of my images are boring - they serve the needs of my clients but I wouldn't show them to anyone else.

 

Totally! That is exactly how I feel....To me, being a "pro" means being compromised. I've got tens of thousands of images that I'd rather never show anybody. Boring stuff that made money but I'd prefer to forget about LOL When I think of portfolio...I think of how much money I have invested instead of what photos are in my book.

 

When I first joined the forum, I gave you a compliment on your architectural photography. I used to assist for an architectural shooter and know what the clients want...so I could tell that you were doing a good job in terms of what would sell to the market. So anyway, just wanted to bring that up since sometimes good clean interiors/exterior shots aren't appreciated by the average viewer.

 

The biggest problem I see with amateur photos on the net is lack of editing. Don't post a photo until it has sat around a while (for your excitement to die down) and become brutal at editing. Sometimes I have to turn to others to edit my work as I'm not always so objective.

 

When I show a portfolio to potential clients, if I don't hear positive feedback about an image after a few showings, I remove it. I remember hearing a famous photographer say that early in her career she went to Magnum and looked through Cartier Bresson's contact sheets. She felt that a lot of his images were awful, and concluded she might have a chance as a photographer after all.

 

Excellent advice. Unfortunately, I think a lot of amateurs are getting used to the flickr format of just sort of vomiting every image they've ever shot onto a single web page. Amaters: Stop doing that LOL....pick out a few of your best images...It really only takes 20 images to prove you're a good photographer. I' m not saying that's all you should show...I'm just saying...be more selective and listen to Alan

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{Snipped}

As you can see, there is really little incentive to post on the Photo Forum, which possibly is too fragmented in to sections. The other alternative would be stop discouraging the posting of pictures of the M8 forum, but we've been over this ground before...

 

I dunno, Mitch, each has its charms.

 

I personally sometimes hate wading through a thread with 200 posts to find the pics sometimes. I also don't always want to engage in a discussion about them.

 

So when I want to look at images alone, and be more reflective, and not dive into the context of discussion, I go to the Photo forum. That not as many people look in the Leica Photo Forum as other places doesn't bother me that much (and I like the polite dialogue there too. I'm critical enough of my own work, thanks

)

 

OTH, I like reading RFF (and other places) when I feel like examining the arguments about an image or reading processing tips along with the shots

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Excellent advice. Unfortunately, I think a lot of amateurs are getting used to the flickr format of just sort of vomiting every image they've ever shot onto a single web page. Amaters: Stop doing that LOL....pick out a few of your best images...It really only takes 20 images to prove you're a good photographer. I' m not saying that's all you should show...I'm just saying...be more selective and listen to Alan

 

Thats because a lot of amateurs are probably not using flickr to manage their portfolio. It's more of a photo journal. Though in a lot of cases, it is just vomiting up everything ever produced.

 

My flickr page isn't thoroughly weeded out. It's not supposed to be. It's recent photos that I like as I take them. I don't have a portfolio, but my best ones I print in the darkroom and either hang in my house or give as gifts to friends and family.

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.. So anyway, just wanted to bring that up since sometimes good clean interiors/exterior shots aren't appreciated by the average viewer....

 

It really only takes 20 images to prove you're a good photographer. I' m not saying that's all you should show...I'm just saying...be more selective and listen to Alan

 

Thanks for the compliment. I shoot them to make a living not because I love looking at home interiors. Unlike a lot of fields of pro photography, my work days are relatively stress free and enjoyable. When putting together a group of photos or a portfolio, remember that it will only be as strong as the weakest photo.

Edited by AlanG

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Steve,

Outstanding set of images. Best of luck to your friend.

 

I agree - 12 photos and not a weak one in the bunch.

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There's no denying the quality of Leica lenses, and there's no denying that Leica once was on the leading edge of camera design.

none of which has anything to do with good/great photography ...

 

 

So why are the majority of modern pictures taken with Leicas so boring? There's never any life to them - mine included.

the domain of boring modern pictures isn't exclusive to Leicas.

the majority of modern pictures taken with non-Leicas are as boring.

 

 

For some reason, Leica pictures are considered "great" for some insignificant highlight, or an out of focus area. All very well, but the pictures are still mostly boring.

not only are they "great", they're also "amazing"

... just like everything else is these days.

 

 

Can't we all collectively have some kind of push to make our photos more interesting. Show the world what a Leica, teamed up with a keen mind, is capable of producing?

yes, i think we all need to organize and demonstrate for more "interesting" photos.

 

 

I think I've seen enough uninspiring pictures of pets, lamps and walls to make me think there is no hope.

 

I just need some inspiration.

perhaps you're looking in the wrong place/s for "inspiring" photos.

you want some inspiration ... here's a start: www.noorimages.com

now tell me which ones were taken with Leicas ...

wait ... better yet, tell me why i should care.

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Excellent advice. Unfortunately, I think a lot of amateurs are getting used to the flickr format of just sort of vomiting every image they've ever shot onto a single web page. Amaters: Stop doing that LOL....pick out a few of your best images...It really only takes 20 images to prove you're a good photographer. I' m not saying that's all you should show...I'm just saying...be more selective and listen to Alan

 

you make that sound so pleasant....

 

i, for one, use flickr and do not vomit up every image. it helps me get feedback on images that i like and see what others think. often i pull something if there are no faves or lots of looks and no comments unless it's a personal favourite of mine. (then again, there are also some popular ones of mine that just make me cringe when i look at them.)

 

could i be more ruthless? sure. and i plan to be when i put images up on a real portfolio site. i use flickr for fun and to share in the process of new lenses and/or cameras. not everything has to be a work of art. and i appreciate hearing from people who are using other cameras and mediums. whilst this forum and others are wonderful for information, sometimes it's nice to spread out and hear from Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Ricoh, Fuji, Pentax,and Lomo users to round out the experience.

 

and picking only 20? on flickr? come on.... that's not what it's there for.

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