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jaapv

Am I really THAT prejudiced?

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Well, if you're talking about cross sections of the population then I suspect there are more good photographers using Nikons than there are Leicas, if only due to volume.

This is probably true. I am referring to the normalised distributions - not to the absolute numbers. I.e. the relative incidence of good photographers.

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Not quite Those are likely to be driven far better than the average Hyundai - by professional private drivers.

Far better and slower i guess given their age. At least they can use the spirit of extasy to stay on the road where the red dot is of little use to aim at the subject unless we stick it in the middle of the viewfinder

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Which means that you can make art with a Holga and indeed some people do. Maybe you can explain where the criterion "art" suddenly came from? Art is one of the many aspects that may or may not be revelant for defining "better". If you aspire to make works of art it is relevant, if you want to have corner to corner sharpness e.g. for architecture then art is less of a concern, although not irrelevant.

 

The "better" I am referring to is "having more control and understanding", "more involvement" which is at least benificial for getting the result you aspire to produce, regardless of the specific aim.

 

Okay. I'll admit that if you confine your analysis to making snapshots of your cat then you may have a point. "More involvement" with what? The more "involved" you are with a camera the less likely it is you'll get good pictures. If you want to do good photography on something other than your cat your "control and understanding" had better be intuitive. If you think about the camera at the moment you press the shutter release then you're probably out of luck as far as having a decent result. In fact, if you think about anything at that moment you're probably out of luck.

 

By the way, every time I click the shutter I have some hope that I'm producing something that can be called "art," no matter how mundane the subject. It usually doesn't work out that way, but there's no excuse for not trying.

Edited by RSL

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I sincerely doubt a lot of forumists here will be able to spot the difference if both cameras are in the hands of good photographers and post-processing professionals.

 

Film might be different.

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I sincerely doubt a lot of forumists here will be able to spot the difference if both cameras are in the hands of good photographers and post-processing professionals.

 

Film might be different.

 

I agree. It is not be all or win all situation.

 

I have both M8 and Nikon D3, generally I could tell the difference. But both cameras produce great images. BTW, D3 + Zeiss ZF lens is a great combo.

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Slap some Zeiss on a D3 or D700 and you can get close to some of that magic. Its all in the lenses IMO. There are pretty huge differences in lenses, and Leica glass is the best in the world IMO.

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Okay. I'll admit that if you confine your analysis to making snapshots of your cat then you may have a point. "More involvement" with what? The more "involved" you are with a camera the less likely it is you'll get good pictures. If you want to do good photography on something other than your cat your "control and understanding" had better be intuitive. If you think about the camera at the moment you press the shutter release then you're probably out of luck as far as having a decent result. In fact, if you think about anything at that moment you're probably out of luck.

 

By the way, every time I click the shutter I have some hope that I'm producing something that can be called "art," no matter how mundane the subject. It usually doesn't work out that way, but there's no excuse for not trying.

a) it wasn't limited to a cat so I fail to see the relevance of this aspect of your reply, first art comes out from the blue and suddenly a cat appears as well, presumably a half-dead quantum cat.

if you understand what you are doing so that you can stop thinking about it then you will "better" than if you are thinking about it all the time. In fact that would be a good meta-definition of "better". But you can't stop thinking about something that you do not comprehend at all. Only a few natural talents will remain as the exception that break the general rule: first you understand, study and master, then you try to forget all you have learnt. Most of us including myself do not even get close.

c) I do not recall stating that "art" was not important so we actually fully agree on that.

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a) it wasn't limited to a cat so I fail to see the relevance of this aspect of your reply, first art comes out from the blue and suddenly a cat appears as well, presumably a half-dead quantum cat.

if you understand what you are doing so that you can stop thinking about it then you will "better" than if you are thinking about it all the time. In fact that would be a good meta-definition of "better". But you can't stop thinking about something that you do not comprehend at all. Only a few natural talents will remain as the exception that break the general rule: first you understand, study and master, then you try to forget all you have learnt. Most of us including myself do not even get close.

c) I do not recall stating that "art" was not important so we actually fully agree on that.

 

Whichever cat you want, Stephen, quantum or otherwise. Sorry to hear you can't even get close... I'm not sure what it is you want to get close to... Perhaps not thinking about something you don't comprehend? Whatever it is, good luck with your attempt.

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I don't think Jaap is prejudiced ... there is a difference. I saw it back in the early 1980s when I first moved to Leica. I am not prepared to say it is the lens, the camera, or the photographer, or that it can be seen in every individual instance. But on balance I like Leica photographs more than others.

 

And I think some of the nay-sayers have causality the wrong way around here. I don't say this because I own Leica; on the contrary, I own Leica because I want to be part of a community that produces the sort of photos I aspire to produce.

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I own leicas too (film) because they are IMO the best tool for the job as I see it. I am not too worried whethere the negs are empirically better (anyway, I primarily use ZM lenses), but more about how the cameras perform for me as picture taking tools under the conditions I use them. I can see very obvious differences between the ZM lenses and the Canon zooms I own, but I will still pick up the SLR when I need it.

 

We have to be honest about the poor quality (small files) of the images posted as well as the variables. There is no real point trying to make comparisons between the two image streams, because, as should be obvious by now, we have no idea as to the variables.

 

If some can see differences in their M8 images over their D3/5D etc, fine. As pointed out, you are buying into a system and looking at final images does not tell the whole story. we must also consider 'shootability' because that has a bearing on whether an image comes into being at all.

 

All that matters is that you are happy with the kit you use so you are free to take shots without kit related concerns spoiling things.

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