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To Full Frame Or Not To Full Frame?


TimF

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I find it sensible to censor the M8 sensor. The only thing L got right was the size. ..sigh.

 

There are quite a number of M8 users who would strongly disagree with that sentiment. Many of us feel they got the sensor quite right. True, it doesn't have the high ISO IQ of the Nikon D3 or the Canon 5D MkII, but up to 640 the Kodak sensor gives us a film-like look that we strongly prefer to the overly sharp, silky smooth images churned out by the high end digitals. If I had to choose between the D3 and the M8 as a camera to use for the rest of my life, the M8 would be an easy choice.

 

Getting back to the original question, the 1.33 crop factor is no problem for me. If future digital Ms continue with that, I'm just fine with it. I have no burning desire to have a "full frame" digital M. To my way of thinking, there is nothing magical about mimicking the size of 35mm film.

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Guest malland
Do we actually know how much Leica sunk into the M8 R&D?

Other point of view, if they ONLY had the M8 and on average sold one M8 and one lens per M8 customer (conservative guess) then their annual turnover of the M8 & trappings would be 10.000 x 6000 euro = 60.000.000 euro or 60.000 euro per employee. That is pretty good going considering they have a whole pile of other products as well.

Stephen, I don't think that €60,000 per employee is very good given not only salaries/wages but also overheads. And to sell only enough M8 units to replace the decline in M7/MP sales is not very good either.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Noir©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

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Why stop at full frame 35mm? Why not a rangefinder in Leica's new 30x45 format?

 

Leica must at least be hoping to make a 24x36 digital M, or by now they would be selling smaller lenses that are designed for the cropped sensor.

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Stephen, I don't think that €60,000 per employee is very good given not only salaries/wages but also overheads. And to sell only enough M8 units to replace the decline in M7/MP sales is not very good either.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Noir©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

I never claimed it was very good, but I also never claimed that it was the only cork keeping them afloat. I we assume that about 30% of the Leica employees are involved with the M8 then it is more like 180-200k per FTE/yr which is actually very good going indeed. But as we do not know these figures I see no point in speculating, these numbers could easily be off mark by a wide margin. The only point is that none of us really know the botttom line. So I also see no point in worrying or telling Leica management what they should do.
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Of course full frame is desirable. The cropped alternative is just a waste of good lens design. However, removing the need for IR/UV filters should be the first priority.

 

Agreed, IR first, then FF would be *awesome* with Leica glass, it would really breathe great depth into the images just like it does with other FF gear.

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I want full frame. If bigger frame is better in an S2 over a D3x, the same logic applies to an M9 over an M8.

 

I have no doubt engineering will solve the problem. I am curious though. Has anyone examined the back distance or done a ray trace on the new wide angle lenses to see what the exit angles really are? Has Leica taken any steps to make the new lenses more compatible with a full frame sensor?

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To my way of thinking, there is nothing magical about mimicking the size of 35mm film.

 

While, as I said, I've given up waiting - the 'magical' part is in seeing the full characteristics of a lens expressed in an image.

Much disparagement of 'full-frame' on this forum - as though it's an arbitrary size. In fact, it's the size for which all your and everyone else's Leica lenses were designed for, and still are.

 

I'm guessing that when the full-frame Leica M finally arrives, there will be many who sing another tune...

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Leica must at least be hoping to make a 24x36 digital M, or by now they would be selling smaller lenses that are designed for the cropped sensor.

Why so? There are, believe it or not, plenty of film shooters out there still. Why should they/we be denied the opportunity to use the new lenses on those 'full frame' cameras? ;)

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Stephen, I don't think that €60,000 per employee is very good given not only salaries/wages but also overheads.

 

The M line is only about 30-40% of their revenue. I assume that the calculation was done by dividing the guessed at M8 production figures by the total number of exployees in the company. If so this is most definately _not_ an accurate way of generating the average revenue per employee. the actualy figure will be several times the 60,000 Euros mentioned by the earlier poster.

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Guest volkerm
then their annual turnover of the M8 & trappings would be 10.000 x 6000 euro = 60.000.000 euro

 

The annual reports are available from the Leica website, just have a look. In business year 2007/2008, the total sale of all system camera products (R,D,M series) including lenses was 57.2 Mio Euro

 

The details on expenses for material, people and R&D are in the report.

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Well, of the people I know who've either owned and sold an M8, or seriously considered buying one and decided not to - the crop factor has not been something high on the list of issues.

 

The majority of people noted:

 

1. Unreliability of the camera (SD, sensor issues, camera locking up, abrupt battery failure)

2. Noisy shutter

3. Relatively poor high ISO performance

4. Focus issues with existing lenses

5. Need for IR filters

 

So, I don't think Leica is losing too many sales due to the sensor crop. My reading is that people were more disappointed with the apparently unreliability and image quality issues.

 

Hopefully, 1 & 2 may have been fixed with the 8.2;

 

4 appears to be fixable, but probably Leica need to actually put some skin in that game and offer to fix/calibrate lenses for new M8.x owners for a reduced cost (maybe 2 lenses per buyer or whatever).

 

3 needs a new sensor, and so does 5 - so maybe these will be something that comes in a M9 (FF or not).

 

If all that is fixed, then I think there are a large number of people who will move back or into the M camera.

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I'm guessing that when the full-frame Leica M finally arrives, there will be many who sing another tune...

 

Cameras are just tools and with any tool, there will always be limitations to what you can do with them. So you have two choices: Either work within the limitations, or constantly complain about them. I prefer the former.

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Great comment Brent! We could always wait for a faster computer, a better cell phone, a nicer car, or a FF M camera. But what should we do in the mean time? Sit around? Not make cell calls? Not use a computer? We have a very good camera here today, it may not be the best, but we have it now! Complaining about what we don't have, won't make it arrive anytime sooner. Would I love a FF M? Sure, however, like most digital camera users, I have never had a FF digital camera, so how can I miss something that I have never had?

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