jcraf Posted March 8, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Enjoying the 'new' M8, with 28 Elmarit-M ASPH and 50mm Summarit. Coming from a D3, I'm bowled over by the image quality, and as someone used to M camera film results, their 'Leica-ness' I was thinking about a 21mm next, but given the current 15% rebate on new lenses in the UK, and the keen prices (at some dealers at least), the idea of a WATE hoves into view. Crumbs - I could even have one for less than GBP 2.5k. with finder, which is getting close to the 21mm f2 price (less rebate of course!) I am sure that this has been debated endlessly on this forum, but as a newbie to the M8, please humour me. Could I please have some candid views on the WATE's qualities, downsides, and ease of use? Thanks in advance! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 8, 2009 Posted March 8, 2009 Hi jcraf, Take a look here To WATE or not to WATE?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
johnbuckley Posted March 8, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 8, 2009 I have had a WATE since it first arrived in the States in mid-March 2007. I've used it exclusively on the M8. It is a fantastic lens, and the best thing about it is there really is a need for the 16-18-21 focal lengths; some shots would be fine with the 21, but are perfect with the 16 and so forth. The downside is a) the relatively slow speed -- relative to the 21 Summilux, not really to anything else out there -- and having to use the Frankenfinder. The Frankenfinder is a typically great piece of German engineering, but aesthetically pleasing it is not. It actually makes it so that using the WATE must be pre-thought out; you don't just reach for it in the bag. You have to say, today I am going to use the WATE and so I must bring the finder, too, and probably keep it on at all times, for ease of use. If you are traveling to, say, India, or Italy, or anyplace where you are likely to be in bright sunlight outside a massive architectural structure, like the Taj or the Duomo, having a WATE will help you bag great pictures. You just have to put up with the Finder. FYI - I took a number of images with the WATE out and around my house yesterday here: Zenfolio | John Buckley | Before Spring Arrives. You'll be able to tell which were taken with a (slightly back-focusing) 35 Summilux, and which were taken with the WATE. JB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted March 8, 2009 Share #3 Posted March 8, 2009 Excellent lens, rarely been off my M8 since I purchased one just before Xmas, last year. You might want to check out my album here on the forum, entitled "Worth The WATE" for examples. I also own the 24/2.8 and 28/2.8. I'm having a lot of problems convincing myself that I need the 24/2.8 since getting the WATE. Incidentally, the lens does have imho very 'elmar' like, vintage colour properties. And I also rarely use the Frankenfinder. I tend to use my CV21 viewfinder (approx 16mm) and then the full frame of the M8 viewfinder for the 21 setting. In between, I guess! LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted March 8, 2009 Share #4 Posted March 8, 2009 Have not regretted my purchase of the WATE 2 years ago (with the 30% rebate in force then). Indeed the choice of 16 up to 21mm -21 up to 28mm really - is enticing. The quality cannot be complained about and with a Milich adapter for the filter it handles really welll. I do not use the Frankenfinder, but up to now a 21-28 Ricoh. Just last week I found the 24 mm finder for the Panasonic sister of the D-Lux 4. Tiny, and the whole frame sort of covers 21mm and the frame itself 28 mm, as it is a too tight for 24mm (35mm terms). Still have to really try that one out, but is was not expensive. You really have to shop around I guess.See some panoramas made with WATE and other lenses on my website and blog. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 8, 2009 Share #5 Posted March 8, 2009 A practical alternative to the cost and size of the WATE (but not its superb quality or Leica 'look') is the Voigtlander 15m f/4.5 Super Wide Heliar aspherical. This tiny little, inexpensive lens is a surprisingly good performer and will offer you an opportunity to decide if a 15/16 mm lens on your M8 suits you before putting down serious money. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully Posted March 8, 2009 Share #6 Posted March 8, 2009 I leave this lens on one of my M-8 bodies all the time...I use two Zeiss finders (21 and 28) on the Thumbs Up double shoe holder....The lens is a solid performer and takes a beating...I am rough on my gear...I love this lens even though it is F4...Looking forward to the sx 21 to use on second body...Ciao, Sully Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share #7 Posted March 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks all. 'Frankenfinder' - priceless description really - I've seen that used in lots of places since my recent M8 acquisition, and it seems to describe perfectly the hideousness of the item in question. A lot of the attraction of the M8 over the D3 for me is the stealthiness. The Frankenfinder moves it closer to being a block of flats (apartments) round the neck........... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted March 8, 2009 Share #8 Posted March 8, 2009 I shoot with the WATE too and the other thing that hasn't been mentioned here, and needs to be considered, is that you need to manually set the focal length in camera for UV/IR correction plus also the Frankenfinder needs to be adjusted to match the focal length (apparent, not real) and for accurate parallax correction there's also the distance. Sounds like a major hassle but in reality you adopt a standard workflow with the lens and it becomes automatic. Also, if you do go with the lens then I HIGHLY recommend the milich UV/IR adapter for it. Superb bit of kit that looks and works better than the Leica monstrosity. If I were buying again I might think twice about the fixed finder recommendations. They may not be as "perfect" but they certainly would be less bulky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olsen Posted March 8, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) Having the crop factor in mind, - it's gonna stay around for a while, I bought my WATE w/Frankenfinder together with my M8 in a sort of a deal. I am very pleased with my WATE, and reckon that the M8/WATE combination is the best digital wide angle combination on market. - I also have the 1Ds III/16-35 mm 2,8L II to compare with. I also have the Voigtländer 15 mm 4,5 Super Wide Heliar. It is cheap and compact and performs remarkably the price considdered. Still, the advantage of the WATE is markedly better. Not the least by that the WATE is rangefinder coupled, while the Voigtländer is not. In practise this means a lot. The WATE, despite that is a zoom, it produces very 'Leica-like' images. It is among the sharpest and the most contrast-rich I have in my lens wardrobe. With the filter and lens recognition 'on' it is a very good wide angle lens with the M8. You should also be aware for the two new wide alternatives on the Leica Menue. Particularly the 21 mm 1,4 which will be a very sharp and contrast rich lens. Problably the sharpest/contrast rich of it's kind. The Frankenfinder I rarely use. It is simply too bulky. I find the libelle practical, though. I have even used it on my 1Ds III sometimes. You can just as well use the Voigtländer 21 mm viewfinder, which I usually do. Edited March 8, 2009 by Olsen Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted March 8, 2009 Share #10 Posted March 8, 2009 I too had both the CV15 and CV12 before getting the WATE. They are fine optics but as soon as you strap on a WATE there is a considerable jump in sharpness, resolution and colour rendition. The WATE on an M8, thanks to crop factor, is sharp right to edge even at f4. In fact, I've yet to see a real advantage, other than a safety margin in hyperfocal focussing to working at anything higher than f4. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaMSeattle Posted March 8, 2009 Share #11 Posted March 8, 2009 I'm planning on getting the Leica 18mm when it arrives as I've already got the Voigtlander 12mm Super wide 4.5 Heliar for a fraction of the cost of the WATE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted March 8, 2009 Share #12 Posted March 8, 2009 I have the WATE and image quality is great but the frankenfinder is big and you have to dial in the focal length on the lens, menu and finder (the latter taking into account the M8 crop factor). The Leica IR filter arrangement is also a clunky fix, so many people go for the John Milich solution. If I was buying now I would just get the prime 18mm Elmar. So much simpler to use and I have the 12mm CV for really wide (a great lens by the way). Seriously, dont rule out the 18mm Elmar. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arif Posted March 9, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 9, 2009 I echo all the comments above. For me, this is a must take on trips since it saves me space and/or can be a very good simple match with a MATE and a faster lens. I don't use the frankenfinder and often crop as necessary since the picture quality is very good. It took me a while to see how I could use it effectively since I am not a wide angle lens shooter but now I see many possibilities. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 9, 2009 Share #14 Posted March 9, 2009 Just a small voice in favour of the Frankenfinder - I use it with 15mm CV / 18mm Zeiss and 21 Leica, and really don't have a problem with bulk. I tried the Leica 21/24/28 and found it hopelessly inaccurate + I've tried a host of other Leica / CV single finders, and keep on coming back to the WATE finder. PROs are: You can see AROUND the image (as in the Leica Viewfinder) Parallax adjustment REALLY makes a difference You only need to carry one finder for a range of lenses. Compared with the cost of 3 individual Leica finders, it's VERY good value Although I use dioptres on my Leica viewfinder, I find I don't need them on the WATE - it's crystal clear... CONs - it's a bit bulky My 2 cents worth... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmurray Posted March 9, 2009 Share #15 Posted March 9, 2009 Just a small voice in favour of the Frankenfinder - I use it with 15mm CV / 18mm Zeiss and 21 Leica, and really don't have a problem with bulk. I tried the Leica 21/24/28 and found it hopelessly inaccurate + I've tried a host of other Leica / CV single finders, and keep on coming back to the WATE finder. PROs are: You can see AROUND the image (as in the Leica Viewfinder) Parallax adjustment REALLY makes a difference You only need to carry one finder for a range of lenses. Compared with the cost of 3 individual Leica finders, it's VERY good value Although I use dioptres on my Leica viewfinder, I find I don't need them on the WATE - it's crystal clear... CONs - it's a bit bulky My 2 cents worth... You beat me to it, Chris. I, too, was going to put in a word for the poor old much maligned Frankenfinder, As one who wears glasses, I find it the best viewfinder on my M8 bar none. I can, as you say, see all around the subject, which is among the chief attractions of rangefinder photography. As for bulk, there can't be much to choose between the Frankenfinder and two other viewfinders mounted side by side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted March 9, 2009 Share #16 Posted March 9, 2009 What you say is true Chris it is a fairly universal finder, but two sets of knobs on the top and you have to remember the M8 crop factor when choosing the frame lines. It is certainly versatile and I am very impressed with view provided, it makes you want to take the photograph. Stylistically it has been given the right name LOL. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted March 9, 2009 Share #17 Posted March 9, 2009 Please consider that when working with very wide lenses, a step or two forward or back will change your image composition just as much as a small change of focal lengths such as the WATE offfers. Also, the WATE has strong barrel distortion at 16mm. I would suggest an 18mm lens as a more practical alternative. Get a Super-Elmar, or the Zeiss Distagon which is also superb and which can be at least temporarily coded with a marker pen, with the Super-Elmar code or that for the WATE, until you decide to go permanent. And in both cases good 24mm finders are to be had at a fraction of the Leica price. I would simply not consider the clunky WATE. The old man from the Age of the 2.1cm Contax Distagon Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 9, 2009 Share #18 Posted March 9, 2009 I was very skeptical about the WATE until I borrowed one. I bought last year and have never regretted it since. I sold my Biogon 21. I have a Frankenfinder but often do not use it. If you can bear to shoot right eyed, you can keep your left eye open and you will soon get a feel for what you will shoot with the WATE. If you also have a Leicagoodies SFILL for the SF24-D flash, the WATE makes an excellent indoors lens, for those situations where you cannot step backwards. it makes a very good holiday companion to the MATE. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted March 9, 2009 Share #19 Posted March 9, 2009 I have a Frankenfinder but often do not use it. If you can bear to shoot right eyed, you can keep your left eye open and you will soon get a feel for what you will shoot with the WATE. it makes a very good holiday companion to the MATE. Wilson I fully agree, seldom use the finder. I love my WATE, great travel lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcuthbert Posted March 9, 2009 Share #20 Posted March 9, 2009 I have to admit, I'm rather envious of those who can afford Leica glass. Having shelled out to get the M8, I'm having to stick with the Voigtlander 28mm F2 Ultron as my next lens. The joys of being a working, chasing invoices, photographer! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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