Sensor update possible?

[Guest bwcolor]

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If there are some members who are qualified as engineers to commnent, I would like opinions as to whether a newer design sensor, perhaps again from Kodak, could be retrofit into the current M8.2, should such a sensor come along? I think I heard that there is an improved sensor from Kodak used in the S2, which might be scaled down to the M.

[jaapv]

If you are prepared to pay more than the cost of a new camera minus the value of a used one, I suppose it might be possible. It will not happen imo....

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[t024484]

Possible yes, but extremely unlikely.

It is like Fiat putting a 12 cylinder Ferrari engine in a Fiat 500.

The result wil be more expensive then a new Ferrari.

Upgrading the sensor wil be more expensive than buying a new camera with higher specs.

 

Hans

[zeitz]

Purely from an engineering perspective, there is no reason the sensor couldn't be changed out. However, the buffer is too small; the processor is too slow; etc. The relationship between the Nikon D3 and D3x is probably possible due to the D3 guts being sized to handle the D3x sensor.

[dcuthbert]

I don't know, with Leica committing to their upgrade program, I'd like to see the possibility of having my M8 upgraded as and when the technology allows for it.

 

Let's face it, the likelihood of the design changing is slim, technology is always moving at a fast pace, you just need to look at the size of modern chips today to see this.

 

The upgrade program could be the perfect avenue for this. Leica works with company X to develop a superior sensor, which then makes it into a newer M model. At the same time, the ability to have an older M8 model upgraded is also presented.

 

From a engineering point of view, there is no reason why this cannot be a possibility.

[Laki]

might be a bit older, but still valid i think The Future of Leica - An Exclusive Interview with Leica CEO Andreas Kaufmann at RIT's Leica Day.

[Guest volkerm]

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It is not plug & play. The readout channels with analog signal conditioning, ISO amplifiers, A/D conversion and digital signal processing are designed for the specific sensor. Upgrading to a new sensor in reality means that you have to re-design the entire system for the new sensor.

[dcuthbert]

I'm not saying it is plug and play, but it is possible, otherwise the "upgrade" program is a rather large PR campaign and admitting people are buying beta quality products and paying to have them go into production quality models through the use of an upgrade.

 

What else could be part of the perpetual upgrade? new sapphire glass every two years?

[Guest bwcolor]

I share dcuthbert's faith in the Leica upgrade promises. What does such a representation by Leica mean if not to use the exisitng M8 and keep improving it? And I appreciate the thoughtful and informed answers to my question, and hope some more of the members will check in on this upgrade plan concept.

[Ecar]

I guess that it might be possible from a technical perspective and that Leica might even offer this as an upgrade just to keep their word regarding the "perpetual upgradability" of the M8.

However, like Jaap, I feel that this is likely to be rather theoretical as the price of the upgrade would be such that you would inevitably be much better off buying the new (M9?) camera.

Then again, some of us may be die-hard sentimentalists and be in love with their battered M8 body:rolleyes:

[luigi bertolotti]

I think that in theory it could be: in practice, it would mean to adopt a new sensor provided that it has been specifically designed and engineered to have compatibility with the the "attached" circuitry (memory included) and logic made for M8, with only Firmware to be changed : very uneven that Kodak and evenmore someone else would go to such an approach: Kodak and others simply develop a new sensor, that has its interfacing specs, the "customer" (Leica, for example) develops the "peripherals" to integrate it into a camera. So, you need to change completely the electronics of the M8/M8.2, supposed it can be assembled in the current body, with the same power source : as other have said, a retrofit cost by far too high to have a commercial sense in a consumer product (after all, a Leica camera is anyway this); similar "upgrades" with new sensors do exist, indeed, but for much more specialized/dedicated/costly products (medical, astronomy, surveying systems). It is significant that, for example and for what I know, sensor upgrades aren't offered even for MF digital backs, in which, in theory, such an operation should be easier than in a "integrated" camera body (after all, MF digital backs are "a sensor and a LCD in a box").

Simply said, a M line with sensor upgrade possible could someway exist only if Leica itself would develop THEIR OWN sensors... absolutely an impossible task.

Edited February 25, 2009 by luigi bertolotti

[sfokevin]

I would add that most would only consider paying for a sensor upgrade that was full frame... That would make make it an even more impossible scenario...

[thompsonkirk]

Why oh why are people still mentioning the possibility of Leica honoring their perpetual upgrade policy, when they already negated this by refusing to include delayed shutter cocking among the upgrade features? They already - and decisively - broke their promise.

 

Kirk

[sfokevin]

Why oh why are people still mentioning the possibility of Leica honoring their perpetual upgrade policy, when they already negated this by refusing to include delayed shutter cocking among the upgrade features? They already - and decisively - broke their promise.

 

Kirk

 

They have broke no promise... They have offered up many upgrades both free and for a price... They just did not drop enough veils to please you...

 

I would guess there will be 1 or 2 more additional rounds of "upgrades" offered up in the next few years...

 

As for the delayed recock... I would also guess that it will be offered in a future software upgrade - but will only work with the upgraded shutter ... This will be in the offering once the shutter upgrade backlog is cleared...

[grduprey]

Purely from an engineering perspective, there is no reason the sensor couldn't be changed out. However, the buffer is too small; the processor is too slow; etc. The relationship between the Nikon D3 and D3x is probably possible due to the D3 guts being sized to handle the D3x sensor.

 

This could be a nightmare to do... The new sensor would have to have the same exact sensor pin out patterns and signal assignments, otherwise a new sensor board would have to be designed and manufactured. Then there are the support circuits to either redesign or reintegrate, with new software/firmware, etc, etc, etc.... This would cost thousands of Dollars/Euros. Better off waiting for a new camera model to come out.

 

Gene

[grduprey]

I'm not saying it is plug and play, but it is possible, otherwise the "upgrade" program is a rather large PR campaign and admitting people are buying beta quality products and paying to have them go into production quality models through the use of an upgrade.

 

What else could be part of the perpetual upgrade? new sapphire glass every two years?

 

Yes it is possible, but highly impractical This would be a major upgrade with major cost impacts. The upgrade could easily cost more than the original camera.

 

Gene

[marknorton]

The whole upgrade history of the M8 - sensor board recall, new shutter, cover glass, framelines plus less well publicised electronic updates, not to mention, say, 6 - 8 firmware releases, is testament to the steep learning curve for Leica in how to make digital cameras.

 

From some points of view, all the "upgrades" should more properly be called "fixes", some of which are optional with the upgrade program. I think though the M8 (and M8.2 since it is mainly a "fixed" M8) is a done deal and all we'll see is firmware upgrades to support new lenses.

 

As for a new sensor, if the economics of the existing upgrade are as marginal as they are, a new sensor makes no sense at all. Even if a new sensor were 100% electrically and mechanically compatible, some imaging characteristics of it would change and need to be matched by expensive firmware changes. It's a non-starter.

 

I'm (late in the day) upgrading 2 of my 3 M8s, as much to force them through a re-alignment process as to get the upgrades themselves. Leica has also recently increased the cost of the upgrades substantially which is, I expect, to choke off demand and by the end of this year, I'd be surprised if the upgrade program was still available.

 

The M8 is old iron now, there are new products coming and Leica has a new focus of bringing development efforts in house. Leica need to move on.

[Bo_Lorentzen]

Yes naturally it is possible.

 

Assuming one swaps both the circuit boards and the sensor at the same time. basically only the box and the external buttons will be kept in the update.

 

I don't think its fair to say Leica have broken the update promises, only that they have made it clear that version 1.0 boxes apparently can not be accept all upgrades.. I somehow doubt that there were updates to the hardware from 8 to 8.2

 

.

[andit]

Hi Guys,

 

Here's another idea that may just work and is not that difficult to implement. Why not take the M7, do a slight redesign on the back and put a hinged film door on it. Then just add the equivalent of the R series DMR. That way you could just exchange the M-DMR as technology moves on - this as opposed to basically throwing the camera away and buying a new one. Problem solved!

 

Personally I think the concept of the DMR is brilliant and I'm amazed that other manufacturers did not take up the idea (the medium format guys being the only one's to run with it).

 

Andreas

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[jaapv]

Ummm...Given that there is widespread satisfaction about the results from the M8, and that most of us think the camera is better than theythemselves are, myself included, where does this mad scramble for an opportunity to waste thousands of Euros come from?

I think I would prefer to upgrade myself as a photographer by using the money to follow courses like the Leica Academy and buy books....