Sprocket holes - clipping frame

[aauckland]

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I have had this problem, (film sprocket holes encroaching into the frame), on all my earlier Leica LTM's, ...IIIc and earlier.

It has been obvious on the following cameras:

Standard, (c.1938)

leica II, (c.1935)

Leica IIIa, (c.1936)

leica IIIc, (c.1946)

...but not my IIIf or IIIg.

 

The clipping occurs at the bottom of the image, and I overcome the problem by very slightly packing, (up), the film cassette, (from the baseplate end.)

Using a piece of 250gsm artpaper, inserted permanently, as the image below shows.

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[jc_braconi]

I have had this problem, (film sprocket holes encroaching into the frame), on all my earlier Leica LTM's, ...but not my IIIf or IIIg..

Some late IIIf and all IIIg have a flat finger soldered on the base plate to help keeping the film in the right place.

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[aauckland]

Yes, quite correct JC,

 

But, how do, (other), people with pre-IIIf LTM's, eleviatte the frame clipping problem?

 

Regards

Alan

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[luigi bertolotti]

Strangerly, I suffered sometimes the problem with my IIIf and never with my IIIc ! My IIIf, anyway, hasn't the baseplate with the finger depicted by JC.

[LeonardT]

Yes, quite correct JC,

 

But, how do, (other), people with pre-IIIf LTM's, eleviatte the frame clipping problem?

 

Regards

Alan

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Hi Alan,

 

I have never had this problem with my II, III or IIIC. I don't do anything special. I use the ABLON template to form the leader tongue and make sure the film is seated all the way to the top of the take up spool. At one time I would open the shutter to look and make sure everything was lined up but don't do that anymore. What do you use for film cartridges? I load my own with metal cartridges from B&H. No problem. It's strange you would have the problem with so many bodies. Let us know if you find anything.

 

Regards,

Len

[aauckland]

There is no issue with re-loadable cassettes Len,

.....the sprocket problem only occurs with modern 35mm film cartridges,

.........I mostly use Ilford product, but it does happen with other brands.

 

My own Leica are-loadable cassettes always have perfect film alignment.

 

PS My film is seated perfectly within the take-up spool.

[LeonardT]

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Interesting, Alan. I just checked my notes from the last two years and except for my self loads I only used Agfa APX100 commercial film cartridges. I do have some Delta 100 and Pan F I could try and see if the Ilford cartridge has a problem.

 

Regards,

Len

[bkyoung]

Check out some older Cartier-Bresson images...

Sprocket holes intrude on the frame!

[aauckland]

Well, isn't that interesting BKY,

 

......I don't think Cartier-Bresson would have had any sleepless nights worrying about his "sprocket holes".

But it does tend to mean it is an age old problem.

.....obviously made more of an issue by the extremely large Leica frame size, ....don't you it find difficult cutting between the frames?

[bkyoung]

I frankly ALWAYS find it difficult cutting between frames, but you are right that the Leica is harder than my Nikons.

 

However, I happen to like the frame edge and even the spocket holes intruding in the frame. But then again, maybe it's because it places me one step away from HCB...

[Caselli]

Noticed it in my II, then saw the same thing in a Bresson photo. Oddly, was somewhat relieved. Seems the film must ride too high in the transport. (?)

[aauckland]

Actually too low, (the film image being upside down when it hits the emulsion),

...hence the need for slight packing of the film cartridge.

[LeonardT]

Alan,

 

I've been looking through my negatives and found this strip which I think describes what you are seeing. This is a commercial APX100 roll I shot shortly after getting my Leica II back from getting a CLA from DAG. I scan all my negatives using a Nikon 9000 scanner. The negative holder frames every negative and hides the frame. I don't see the sprocket holes in my normal scans. I scanned this strip using a 120 film glass carrier set to 6X9. You can clearly see the sprocket holes into the negative area. Actually you can see the negative actually moved position between the two frames. My IIIc negatives sprocket holes just touch the edges of the frame but do not go into the frame. It still shows the top and bottom sprockets not centered to the frame.

 

Len

 

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[aauckland]

Your scan shows a good example of sprocket clipping Len,

 

Although I don't, (think), I suffer from from the "Tilted" frame effect. Your frames are not lying parallel to the film path, (they are tilted, or really the film is angled.)

.....so one end of the cartridge is low, and probably the "Artpaper insert", that I described in my initial post, would overcome the issue.

[Caselli]

I thought the bottom of the image,(where the holes show) suggests that the film is too high in the camera, (too close to the top because of the natural inversion in the camera.) Oh, well, I'm almost as old as the camera...maybe that's my problem.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Caselli

[aauckland]

Len's scan shows it clearly,

Since the image is inverted, hence top of image is near the camera bottom, bottom of image is close to camera viewfinder.

...and the above scan shows the sprocket holes encroaching into the bottom of the frame, (therefore at the top of the camera). Which means the film is too low, so move the film slightly higher, in the camera body, and the sprocket holes stay clear of the image area.

 

I must say I wasn't that sure myself initially, and packed the cartridge in the wrong direction with my 1st attempt, .....but the fault goes worse.

 

As I indicated to Len, his film is actually slanting, (at a noticable angle), across his camera, ie. the film is not running parallel with the camera's picture taking frame.

 

PS I am older than my IIIc.

[Caselli]

Thanks Alan, finally wrapped my mind around it. Had it upside-down for years.

[LeonardT]

Here is another film strip from my IIIc. It shows the same tendency as the II body to have the sprockets close to the frame but in this case they barely touch the edge. I better check the rest of my bodies.

 

Len

 

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[aauckland]

Yes, thanks Len,

Only a "slight" version, if you like, ...but you can still see the tendency for the frame to "Tilt", (ever so slightly.), due to the film cassette being slightly lower, (towards baseplate direction), than is ideal.

(This would be overcome totally with a paper spacer inserted into the baseplate.)

 

I believe we a discussing a common issue, but that probably isn't obvious to colour film shooters, since few are Colour film DIY'ers.

...or is the real question how many people are "Using" film in their pre-war Barnack's?

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Hallo,

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[bkyoung]

Here's an example from my experience with a IIIc (I think) and 90mm -- you can see the sprockets intruding well into the image...

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