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Lasex

A second hand M8 - waste of money?

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Guest Jockele

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A new M8 is now listed at 3198 euros incl. tax (at leicashop in Vienna, for example). Thus I wonder whether buying a second hand M8 is any good idea anymore, because they still seem to go for over 2200 euros on the "fleabay" even though some of them are nearly 2 years old, warranty is almost out and some don't come with any IR filters, either. That's more than 2/3rds of the price of a brand new one. Too much in digital days.

 

And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc? Maybe Leica will soon upgrade M8.2 with a new sensor with low noise and good dynamic range even at ISO800 and higher? Then having bought a second hand first generation digital M8 at 2000 + Euros will be a really poor investment - or do you disagree?

 

 

Yes!

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Thus I wonder whether buying a second hand M8 is any good idea anymore, because they still seem to go for over 2200 euros on the "fleabay" even though some of them are nearly 2 years old, warranty is almost out and some don't come with any IR filters, either. That's more than 2/3rds of the price of a brand new one. Too much in digital days.

 

And your point is? Used M8s are too expensive? I might agree there, I would be happy to buy a second body for 1k. Unfortunately, that only happens if I trust Western Union transfers

 

And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc?

 

Noise, yes - maybe. What falls under etc.?

 

Maybe Leica will soon upgrade M8.2 with a new sensor with low noise and good dynamic range even at ISO800 and higher?

 

Maybe - that's the way the cookie crumbles if you buy technology. Usualy tech loses half it's value the second you switch it on, I think the high end price range cameras do pretty well there. I've enjoyed my M8 for over 2 years now - I passed on the M8.2, so I might be interested in what comes after that - still nothing that would hold me back to enjoy my current M8.

 

Then having bought a second hand first generation digital M8 at 2000 + Euros will be a really poor investment - or do you disagree?

 

For an investment I expect some kind of return. Since I am not a pro, I expect it to bring me fun and enjoyment, either in the shooting process or in the result of the photos taken.

The M8 delivers in both categories, so for me it's worth something.

 

Result: I disagree and here's your fish.

<°)))o><

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A new M8 is now listed at 3198 euros incl. tax (at leicashop in Vienna, for example). Thus I wonder whether buying a second hand M8 is any good idea anymore, because they still seem to go for over 2200 euros on the "fleabay" even though some of them are nearly 2 years old, warranty is almost out and some don't come with any IR filters, either. That's more than 2/3rds of the price of a brand new one. Too much in digital days.

 

And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc? Maybe Leica will soon upgrade M8.2 with a new sensor with low noise and good dynamic range even at ISO800 and higher? Then having bought a second hand first generation digital M8 at 2000 + Euros will be a really poor investment - or do you disagree?

 

You've got 2200 euros and you want an M8 ... that's your answer! You get a pre-owned one or wait & wait & wait and put off enjoying using the camera until some time in the future, assuming you live that long.

 

If you've got 3200 euros then you've got a different choice - new or used.

 

What so hard to understand?

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Guest volkerm
You've got 2200 euros and you want an M8 ... that's your answer! You get a pre-owned one or wait & wait & wait

 

Recently, with the cash back, you could get brand new M8 for 2200€ from the UK.

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Recently, with the cash back, you could get brand new M8 for 2200€ from the UK.

 

Well, I was just using the OP's numbers ...

 

Obviously if you can get a new M8 for 2200€ and those for sale secondhand are also 2200€ then you'd be an idiot to buy a used one at that price.

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Well, I was just using the OP's numbers ...

Obviously if you can get a new M8 for 2200€ and those for sale secondhand are also 2200€ then you'd be an idiot to buy a used one at that price.

 

I have been looking at new M8 prices on the net, and unfortunately at the present moment you can not get a new M8 for 2200€ .

I think 2200€ incl. VAT for a new M8 would sound reasonable now in year 2009.

 

But IMHO 2200€ for a used unmodified M8 from the "fleabay" without any or almost any warranty left is way too much. This also because the early M8s have so many reported issues (vertical banding, rangefinder misalignment, shutter freezing, sudden death etc.etc.), so it really does not appear to be any more (or even as) reliable than any other digital camera today.

 

But, as someone said to me here, one should not think that a M8 is an investment.

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This guy reminds me of a friend of mine who moved to Sweden from Italy, and violently objects to the way that apartments are bought and sold here - with a bidding process, that is.

 

According to him, this just drives the prices up way too high. No amount of discussion convinces him that a bidding process means that the apartment reaches it's 'correct' market value. He's a reasonable and intelligent person in every other respect, I should add.

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A new M8 is now listed at 3198 euros incl. tax (at leicashop in Vienna, for example). Thus I wonder whether buying a second hand M8 is any good idea anymore, because they still seem to go for over 2200 euros on the "fleabay" even though some of them are nearly 2 years old, warranty is almost out and some don't come with any IR filters, either. That's more than 2/3rds of the price of a brand new one. Too much in digital days.

 

And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc? Maybe Leica will soon upgrade M8.2 with a new sensor with low noise and good dynamic range even at ISO800 and higher? Then having bought a second hand first generation digital M8 at 2000 + Euros will be a really poor investment - or do you disagree?

Why limit your thinking to an M8? Instead of a second M8 I bought a Panasonic LX3 and a Canon G10 for a fraction of the cost of an M8. I use the Pana and the G10 for the things the M8 doesn't do, the Pana is pocketable and both are light enough to carry along with the M8 in a bag. Both have excellent image quality from RAW files. I could go on but you might think of limiting what you perceive as a risky investment, save some money and get another camera you can pocket or that expands the photographic experience for you.

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That is the difference between Leica Equipment and other manufacturers. It keeps it's value - just look at the used market. Andreas

 

I predict: The Leica bubble is the next one to burst. And no bailout will save You!

 

BTW Andreas: verkaufst du immer noch gut betuchten aber schwach bestückten Rentnern Grundstücke in Florida?

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Lassex...you don't feel you M2 is 'obselete' compared to a Nikon F5 or F6?

What you're saying is it isn't obselete to you because your M2 will take photos of equal merit as those taken by the technically far superior F6 (c'mon guys...no flames, the F6 is one of the best 35mm SLR's ever made).

It's the same with the M8. It's this digital myth that as soon as something new comes out, the old is obselete. But if it still makes worthwhile photos that garner praise...then it's as 'current' as anything out there.

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It's easy.......it's the best available option for digital rangefinder photography and (to many of us) an easy transition and benefit of using our Leica glass. That being said, you can wait indefinitely for M9 or lower used prices but that may take quite awhile when you could just plunk down the money and enjoy it. The market is what it is..The camera will always have SOME value so you have to make the decision regarding the value of the difference. Otherwise you can still use great film M's and get scanned CD's for mere $'s and still have negatives to keep forever. I do both, but hey what do I know

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If you plan to use it, you won't regret.

 

Hmmm....I am not sure that applies to everyone who has tried it.

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I predict: The Leica bubble is the next one to burst. And no bailout will save You!

 

BTW Andreas: verkaufst du immer noch gut betuchten aber schwach bestückten Rentnern Grundstücke in Florida?

 

Hallo Ewald,

 

Nein, also in Florida bin ich ja nun wirklich nicht. Ich könnte den aber etwas andrehen in Namibia

Ich hoffe aber das Leica nicht den weg geht wie Märklin, Agfa usw.

 

Andreas

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Lassex...you don't feel you M2 is 'obselete' compared to a Nikon F5 or F6?

What you're saying is it isn't obselete to you because your M2 will take photos of equal merit as those taken by the technically far superior F6 (c'mon guys...no flames, the F6 is one of the best 35mm SLR's ever made).

It's the same with the M8. It's this digital myth that as soon as something new comes out, the old is obselete. But if it still makes worthwhile photos that garner praise...then it's as 'current' as anything out there.

 

The M2 can still be regarded as good as a Nikon F5 or F6 as a "image capturing device", because both use the same 35mm films and you can use modern lenses on the M2 as well. (And yes, personally I much prefer my M2 over any complicated, large and fully automatic SLR ).

 

With M8 the case is different. It's sensor will quite soon be inferior compared to the best DSLR's sensors, in fact, at high ISOs it already is. It may keep it's second hand value in the next few years better than the DSLRs of same vintage do, but this IMHO is due to the small number of M8s on the second hand market, not because of it being still quite up-to-date camera. In contrast, the film M's held, and hold, their second hand value largely due to their good quality, longevity and compability with also modern M-mount lenses.

Edited by Lasex

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It's easy.......it's the best available option for digital rangefinder photography and (to many of us) an easy transition and benefit of using our Leica glass. That being said, you can wait indefinitely for M9 or lower used prices but that may take quite awhile when you could just plunk down the money and enjoy it. The market is what it is..The camera will always have SOME value so you have to make the decision regarding the value of the difference. Otherwise you can still use great film M's and get scanned CD's for mere $'s and still have negatives to keep forever. I do both, but hey what do I know

 

You have a point. The market is what it is. No idea really blaming on the market.

 

I will probably wait for the next decent offer on a new M8. I will not buy a used M8 at todays prices. I won't wait for a M9, I guess - besides, it's first production runs may well have teething problems, which may take 1-2 years to solve out, and I will not be beta-testing for Leica at my own expense.

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This guy reminds me of a friend of mine who moved to Sweden from Italy, and violently objects to the way that apartments are bought and sold here - with a bidding process, that is.

 

According to him, this just drives the prices up way too high. No amount of discussion convinces him that a bidding process means that the apartment reaches it's 'correct' market value. He's a reasonable and intelligent person in every other respect, I should add.

 

Well, a market value is only just that - market value. Absolute value is something quite different. After the second world war you could buy a Leica in Germany with couple of cartons american cigarettes... that was a market value, too.

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Guest Luis D

 

Btw, yesterday I looked at the second hand shelves at one local camera store. Lots of Canon 1Ds there, from MkI to Mk III. A rather clean looking Canon 1D Mk I body was to be had for something like 430 euros, and the US retail price as new 7 years ago was 8000$, that is about 16 times more! That is the kind of price you can think as acceptable for an outdated digital camera - even though a 1D MkI can still take beautiful pictures =).

 

 

Hi there Lasex,

 

You have just proved a point. You could not give away a second hand, two year old Canon/Nikon/Sony, unless you literally paid someone to take it. That is the difference between Leica Equipment and other manufacturers. It keeps it's value - just look at the used market.

 

Those would be good arguments if only they were true. A Canon 5D cost US$3300 when it first appear in 2005. It is 4 years until it was replaced. Still a used 5D is at or above $1000. A 1DS-MarkII what was first appear before the 5D, at $8000, is used now at $2500-2800. This in a time of terrible economy, and most 1-series Canon maybe was used heavily by professionals. When these both models was 2 yrs old, a used ones was going at $2600 and $6000, far more than 50% of new price. The M8 is 2 yrs old when replaced by slight upgraded M8.2. Who paid last year $5500 for an M8 can now take back $2200. And, unlike the Canon's, the M8 is not replaced with a model what has a bigger or better sensor!! So as I see, at least in digital, Leica value drops farther faster than Canon.

 

But bottomline, should one ask is a camera for investment or taking photos?

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A new M8 is now listed at 3198 euros incl. tax (at leicashop in Vienna, for example). Thus I wonder whether buying a second hand M8 is any good idea anymore, because they still seem to go for over 2200 euros on the "fleabay" even though some of them are nearly 2 years old, warranty is almost out and some don't come with any IR filters, either. That's more than 2/3rds of the price of a brand new one. Too much in digital days.

 

And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc? Maybe Leica will soon upgrade M8.2 with a new sensor with low noise and good dynamic range even at ISO800 and higher? Then having bought a second hand first generation digital M8 at 2000 + Euros will be a really poor investment - or do you disagree?

 

Well... let's speak in practical terms, supposing one likes to buy a M8 and has alternative 2200€ used (out of warranty or very next to) vs. 3200€ new : out of question, imho, go for new: apart cosmetics and "feel of the NEW".. the chance that within 2 more years "something" happens to the used one, meaning very probably >500 € makes it a rather risky choice. But I think also that 2nd hand market for M8 is presently very young, little, hence"anelastic" ... if one wants to sell M8 to buy a M8.2 probably (being not so different the two) he wants to sell "high", even disposed to lose the sale if doesn't meet his expectation of the net he's disposed to put on M8.2. If he wants to sell M8 for has decided it's not for him... for he definitely hates the camera... probably he wants to finance something completely different: he's probably disposed to discuss the price... but you must talk directly with him, understand motivations, negotiate and that isn't easy, for M8 owners are seldom out of your door , and more less M8 owners that have decided to abandon the brand...

 

Anyway, I don't see reason for the used price of M8 won't follow the destiny of other digitals... after 6-7 years or so the value will be negligible... even if electronics components really can have a very long life (my HP150 of 1984 still runs CPU/Disk/Monitor perfectly... of course with DOS...

) there is a solid mood that IF something fails... nothing to do or stellar/discouraging costs and hassles.

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Those would be good arguments if only they were true. A Canon 5D cost US$3300 when it first appear in 2005. It is 4 years until it was replaced. Still a used 5D is at or above $1000. A 1DS-MarkII what was first appear before the 5D, at $8000, is used now at $2500-2800. This in a time of terrible economy, and most 1-series Canon maybe was used heavily by professionals. When these both models was 2 yrs old, a used ones was going at $2600 and $6000, far more than 50% of new price. The M8 is 2 yrs old when replaced by slight upgraded M8.2. Who paid last year $5500 for an M8 can now take back $2200. And, unlike the Canon's, the M8 is not replaced with a model what has a bigger or better sensor!! So as I see, at least in digital, Leica value drops farther faster than Canon.

 

But bottomline, should one ask is a camera for investment or taking photos?

 

These were very informative figures, thank you. It looks like the M8 prices have been falling rather rapidly compared to the japanese DSLRs, after all.

 

I have never bought a camera as investment. A digital camera is, and should be, as good an investment as a PC. In 1988 a IBM 286 with 20Mb harddisk cost about 5000 euros. Today it is junk. A M8 cost 5000 euros in 2007. What do you expect it to be in 2030?

Edited by Lasex

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Guest kirkmingle
(...) And isn't a M8 a little outdated already, with all that noise at high ISO etc? (...)

 

eerm.. The M8.2 has the same sensor as the M8. I have no idea why you think the M8 is out-dated (?) It is still the flagship of Leica.

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