petermcwerner Posted February 17, 2009 Share #21 Posted February 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Vertical alignment was totally off by a long chalk. Surprised mainly because I can't understand how Leica's quality control can let these faults throughSame thing happened to me when I received my M8. I must add, though, that it was one of the first ones (October 2006) before the M8 QC problems became public. The same camera had the horizontal stripe problem. Fortunately, at Leica Switzerland it was fixed in less than a week without having to go to Solms. Two 200 Km drives to bring it and get it back.On the negative side, they told me they also cleaned the sensor. It had more specks than when I brought it in. The horizontal line also re-appeared now that the camera is no longer under guarantee. I shall not have it fixed, as it appears only in low light situations that are not typical for my use. The same negative experience had happened a year earlier with the DMR, it had to be sent to Solms and after over 2 months they sent me another one as exchange with several thousand actuations on it. It has worked well, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 Hi petermcwerner, Take a look here Brand new M8 - Totally misaligned finder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
plasticman Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share #22 Posted February 17, 2009 Hi Peter Sorry to hear about the returning stripe - but I actually have a feeling that because this may be seen as an inherent manufacturing problem of the sensor, that Leica would probably be obliged to fix it even after the warranty has expired. I would probably not bother myself, unless it was in the middle of the image, I rarely if ever use high ISOs, but it would always be annoying of course. One thing I wonder is whether anything constructive can be done about Leica's QC? We've all moaned a lot over the years, and I think a lot of us have had a feeling that Leica has improved its procedures. I'm not saying that one misaligned viewfinder nullifies all of that, but there are still too many stories of shoddy QC creeping through the system, in my opinion. So I wonder if there's anything we can do to bring this directly to Leica's attention, and make them more aware of the fact that these problems erode confidence in the brand as a whole? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 17, 2009 Share #23 Posted February 17, 2009 I don't know - years ago I bought a new Morgan motor car - handbuilt, like Leica. When, on a factory visit I mentioned that the bonnet had 1cm more gap on the righthand side than on the left side, the foreman looked at me and said: "You know, Sir, you are absolutely right. Somehow they all have that and we don't know why..." The moral is that -apart from blatant things like grossly misaligned rangefinders- a handbuilt product is not as simple to quality-control as a robot-built one. Not an excuse, but Leica are doing as good as can be expected imo, but there is always room for improvement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 17, 2009 Share #24 Posted February 17, 2009 ...Leica are doing as good as can be expected imo... I envy your optimism, Jaap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
petermcwerner Posted February 17, 2009 Share #25 Posted February 17, 2009 One thing I wonder is whether anything constructive can be done about Leica's QC? ... So I wonder if there's anything we can do to bring this directly to Leica's attention, and make them more aware of the fact that these problems erode confidence in the brand as a whole? I do not see that we can do much, nor that we should. Leica must be aware of the situation, there have been many posts on the Leica forum and Leica says they are reading it. They have also certainly received many direct complaints from customers, including myself. I have got disillusioned with the firms “do not care” attitude. I do not think it up to us to solve their problems; it is the Leica management’s responsibility. Either they do not care or they are incapable of correcting what they must know to be a serious problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdubois Posted February 17, 2009 Share #26 Posted February 17, 2009 Highly unlikely to be transit related. The vertical alignment is set through the hole behind the red dot which physically moves the optical group projecting the rangefinder image into the viewfinder up and down. The adjustment is quite tight and Leica make a tool which is inserted into the locating hole and a cam moves the lens group. It's an adjustment any Leica specialist can do, but of course should never have left Solms like that. Not wishing to defend Solms QC which I agree leaves a lot to be desired I found that they (Leica) at least know how to pack a camera to be reasonably courier proof. I have generally found that (in UK) camera shops pack entirely inadequately for the rigours of couriers. I never cease to be amazed at how damaged an item can be when the parcel is opened despite that the outer box is intact and apparently in good condition. Of course once you have signed for it undamaged there is no recourse to the courier; it's part of their limit liability trick. Now we almost always use Pelicases on sensitive materials. Dubois Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted February 17, 2009 Share #27 Posted February 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My M8, bought new in May 2007, had vertical misalignment right out of the box….. Leica New Jersey was going through service nightmares at that time, with SDS, IR problems, green lines etc etc, I decided to live with it rather than trust it into their hands and eventually did the adjustment myself. That did not fix it completely though, as there still was a horizontal discrepancy (!!), which varied with the location of my eye behind the eyepiece. Needless to say, accurate focusing was nigh impossible… I waited for the upgrades and the camera is now in NJ, hopefully to address the rangefinder issue as well. As to how hard a knock an M finder has to receive to go out of alignment - it has to be a quite severe and hard knock to affect the vertical alignment. Dropping the camera from 5 meters or more, when inside a shipping carton and its original packaging, would not do it. The fall would be cushioned to a degree and not enough force would be extended on the finder mechanism. I have used M bodies for over 40 years and not always gently; only once did I manage to knock the RF out of alignment. Believe me - the misaligned RF was the least of my worries…. My take is that the final QC at Leica is simply not what it used to be or, the ageing QC staff’s eyesight is also not what it once used to be.. Best, Jan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdubois Posted February 17, 2009 Share #28 Posted February 17, 2009 As to how hard a knock an M finder has to receive to go out of alignment - it has to be a quite severe and hard knock to affect the vertical alignment. Dropping the camera from 5 meters or more, when inside a shipping carton and its original packaging, would not do it. The fall would be cushioned to a degree and not enough force would be extended on the finder mechanism. Jan Don't you believe it! The hardship equipment suffers at the hands of couriers is legendary and well documented as others have written further up this thread. Best Dubois Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted February 17, 2009 Share #29 Posted February 17, 2009 Don't you believe it! The hardship equipment suffers at the hands of couriers is legendary and well documented as others have written further up this thread. Best Dubois I have shipped and received close to 3000 packages with cameras, as well as model train stuff, using the USPS and Canada Post, during the last 10 years. Now - I am holding onto a piece of wood but, have to say that nothing ever got damaged or broken. If an M body would be shipped without any padding and wrapped rather carelessly, there may be a possibility that if the box got drop-kicked across the Post Office floor, the RF may be thrown out of alignment. I still firmly believe that the misaligned finders are due to bad QC, not to shipping damage. Best, Jan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share #30 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) While I don't have much faith in couriers, I actually don't think the camera could have sustained this damage in shipping: the amount of bubble-wrap in the surrounding package and the suspension of the body itself within the very large M8 box seems to me to preclude it. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed about the replacement - this one at least could take perfectly focussed images even with the Nocti (when vertical objects could be aligned), but tomorrow it'll be on it's way back to Ffordes - who (so far at least) have been exemplary for good service. and PS: I'm determined to stay positive. If we can think of ways that lead to better QC and reliability from Leica, let's encourage them to implement them. They have a wonderful product and, despite everything, an amazingly resilient and enthusiastic following. Let's make it work. Edited February 17, 2009 by plasticman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted February 17, 2009 Share #31 Posted February 17, 2009 While I don't have much faith in couriers, I actually don't think the camera could have sustained this damage in shipping: the amount of bubble-wrap in the surrounding package and the suspension of the body itself within the very large M8 box seems to me to preclude it. I agree. I got a M8 back from Leica NJ service with the vertical alignment out nearly 3 inches at a focusing distance of 5 feet. Could NOT understand how someone missed this during final inspection (that's right they don't do a final inspection) before it was boxed back up and shipped out to me. No way this happened during shipping. Just Piss Poor QC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmx_2 Posted February 17, 2009 Share #32 Posted February 17, 2009 På ren svenska (sorry everybody else, writting in Swedish), du har haft grymt oflyt. Jag köpte tre M8:or från Ffordes i slutet på januari och än så länge har två av dem fungerat oklanderligt, den tredje har inte kommit än, en kromad. Förr i tiden kunde Leica i Danmark lösa sådant, nu för tiden ska allt till Solms:mad: Skam den som ger sig, annars är det en mycket trevlig kamera! Joakim Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share #33 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) På ren svenska (sorry everybody else, writting in Swedish), du har haft grymt oflyt. Jag köpte tre M8:or från Ffordes i slutet på januari och än så länge har två av dem fungerat oklanderligt, den tredje har inte kommit än, en kromad. Förr i tiden kunde Leica i Danmark lösa sådant, nu för tiden ska allt till Solms:mad: Skam den som ger sig, annars är det en mycket trevlig kamera! Joakim Hej Jocke - sådant händer. Jag tar det med lugn och ro än så länge. Hoppas på bättre tur nästa gång. Trevliga gäng på Ffordes iaf, men jävligt irriterande att allt måste tillbaks till Tyskland om det blir nåt litet fel. Ha det! Mani Should just add that Joakim's experience shows that I've been rather unlucky. Life sometimes does that. Edited February 17, 2009 by plasticman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 17, 2009 Share #34 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) black submarines and chrome leicas http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/barnacks-bar/78102-billions-billions-pounds-have-been-spent.html#post814370 Edited February 17, 2009 by stnami Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted February 17, 2009 Share #35 Posted February 17, 2009 Mani, dont worry about the advice in this parallel universe. Ask Helga what you should do. ..... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/77008-brand-new-m8-totally-misaligned-finder/?do=findComment&comment=812325'>More sharing options...
plasticman Posted February 17, 2009 Author Share #36 Posted February 17, 2009 Well I'll definitely keep my hands off my horn, Rob - if that's what you mean? Anyways, just calculated my shipping costs back to Ffordes - just over $100 (US that is). I hate this sort of thing: take a $100 and set fire to it... totally meaningless, and very frustrating, especially with a four-month old kid who would benefit way more from the expense than this needless and stupid waste. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted February 18, 2009 Share #37 Posted February 18, 2009 One track mind Mani:D I think the implication is that Mrs Mani might have a very good idea when you are about to fib. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted February 18, 2009 Share #38 Posted February 18, 2009 I guess that knocking the vertical alignment is difficult for some to believe or achieve and pretty easy for the rest of us. I dropped an M8 and saved it with my foot and that was sufficient to knock the vertical alignment off. It taught me that M8's are dense and heavy from 4-5ft and also that even a tiny misalignment of the VF vertically is tiresome. Leica fixed mine perfectly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 18, 2009 Share #39 Posted February 18, 2009 That is right, Graham. It is just a matter of knocking it at exactly the right angle and with sufficient force. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share #40 Posted February 18, 2009 I guess that knocking the vertical alignment is difficult for some to believe or achieve and pretty easy for the rest of us. I dropped an M8 and saved it with my foot and that was sufficient to knock the vertical alignment off. It taught me that M8's are dense and heavy from 4-5ft and also that even a tiny misalignment of the VF vertically is tiresome. Leica fixed mine perfectly. Hi Graham - I don't for a second think that misalignment can't happen from a drop, but the question then should be reformulated as to whether a camera that is packed within its own box, which is inside a further box, which in turn is wrapped in bubble-wrap and then yet another heavy-duty cardboard box, whether that camera should sustain damage which makes it unusable if that overall package is dropped sometime in transit (between two points that are not geographically remote from each other). What I find strange is that each of the two M6s I've owned over recent times, and the M7 have never been less than perfectly aligned. At least one of the M6s was probably at least as old as me. In any case, before I send the camera back I'm going to take a quick stroll past the main Leica dealer in town - horizontal alignment shouldn't really be cause for trans-european shipment imho. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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