charlesphoto99 Posted January 22, 2009 Share #41 Posted January 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Are the posts on this thread "unreliable and biased?" People who claim to have a problem are lying? The problems with the M8 are hardly "unverified," nor were they "unverified" then. You do some beautiful work, Jaap, and it seems you've been incredibly lucky with your M8s, but I'd suggest the bias is with those who suggest the M8 is just fine, but perhaps "not 100% reliable." Every indication is that it's probably the least reliable camera ever built. Yes, there are some problems, but often the internet is a place for info when things go wrong vs right. Rarely do you read "Hi, my camera has nothing wrong with it, could you tell me what I should do?" Leicas have always been notoriously finicky mechanical objects. If you've never had to send an M film body in for servicing then you probably just weren't using it enough. I find it sad that you deny yourself the opportunity (considering you can afford it) to use this fun and exhilarating camera. More than likely you wouldn't have any problem with it and if you did it might be some niggly mechanical issue that all M's suffer from (that's what's been wrong with my M8). Instead you lurk on this forum in order to elevate your decision to not shoot with an M8 into a condemnation that all who do are suffering fools. Sad. But there is a culture at Leica service that needs addressing. Whether it be a matter of tenureship, overworked or underpaid employees, undertrained employees, and the list can go on, is not for us to know but for Leica to change. It's too bad because it is a fantastic camera. Even with the problems I've had I just bought a second one (used). I also own a Nikon D3 and many other film cameras but in the last couple of years the M8 is the one I seem to most want to pick up (the D3 is a bit like going to the gym) to record my life. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Hi charlesphoto99, Take a look here NJ M8 Service is a joke.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gfspencer Posted January 22, 2009 Share #42 Posted January 22, 2009 Why shouldn't I expect a camera body that I pay $5400, or more for, not to be 100% reliable?PeterP I agree, Peter. You should expect something that is costly to be 100% reliable but it just isn't going to happen in the real world. I own two fairly expensive cars . . . both German. They both have had their share of problems . . . recalls, etc. Same thing with two motorcycles that I have . . . one German and one Italian. The German bike has spent about as much time in the shop as it has on the road. In fact I can't think of many things that I own that are 100% reliable. Not my DSLR. Not my laptop computer. Are craftsmen getting sloppier? Maybe. Are products getting more complicated? Certainly. That doesn't make me feel any better but it is the truth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nealf Posted January 22, 2009 Share #43 Posted January 22, 2009 Now, let me get this straight. You send in your M8 for a warranty repair, you.ve put an after market covering on your camera, they have to remove that covering to do the repair which get damaged, and you expect them to replace that covering with their most expensive covering at no charge. I'm surprised that they did the repair at no charge as you tampered with the camera, by adding the aftermarket item in the first place. You are being rediculous... The only thing that they are responsible for are those parts and item which are original to the camera.! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share #44 Posted January 22, 2009 Sorry, but this is one of the more idiotic posts I've ever read. Thanks for that. I was going to reply but then thought better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 22, 2009 Share #45 Posted January 22, 2009 But yeah, Solms needs to shift some resources over to the US side of things. They should have done this a long time ago. .......but not until they have finished re-servicing my M8 and MATE please. I hope they don't have to take my cover off as I have just had Camera-Leather Rollei Black Magic put on, as I found the original rubber very slippery. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share #46 Posted January 22, 2009 Now, let me get this straight. You send in your M8 for a warranty repair, you.ve put an after market covering on your camera, they have to remove that covering to do the repair which get damaged, and you expect them to replace that covering with their most expensive covering at no charge. I'm surprised that they did the repair at no charge as you tampered with the camera, by adding the aftermarket item in the first place. You are being rediculous...The only thing that they are responsible for are those parts and item which are original to the camera.! This is another idiotic post. Yes I changed the covering, from the one that slips out of your hand easily to one that you can actually hold on to, as many M8 users have. It they have to damage the covering whe removing it they have to replace it anyway. So why should it cost me more, $330 which is total Bull Sh*t, to have the newer style installed on the camera. No you are the ridiculous one. What they are responsible for is selling a camera that doesn't break down multiple times. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSL Posted January 22, 2009 Share #47 Posted January 22, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Me - two bodies, my cousin - two bodies - my brother - 1, no problems there, my dealer has sold over 50 of the things and has had one guarantee return. So I would say my luck is rather average. I never said they were lying - on the contrary, I think they are not. But I do think they do not give a true picture of the statistics, just of the problems they are having, Russel.I just find it a bit sad that it diverts people like you, who would really appreciate the M8, from enjoying this camera. If you take a look at Wifredo's positive thread you will see that there is a silent majority here. Jaap, Sounds as if luck runs in your family. I certainly agree that complaints on a forum don't give a true statistical picture, though I wonder how many of the 50 M8s your dealer has sold actually are in constant use. But who needs a true statistical picture? The fact that there are this many complaints and that the complaints continue at the same or at an increased rate after two years tells me something I need to know. Check out the Nikon fora. Check out the Canon fora. Yes, Canon has had some auto focus problems and still has them, but in general the number of complaints about either of these camera lines doesn't even come close to the complaints I see on the Leica fora. The M8 is no spring chicken and the M8.2 is the same old M8 with a few cosmetic changes. It's long past time for the bugs to have been fixed in this camera. As far as Wilfredo's "positive" thread is concerned, it doesn't seem to me that one positive thread -- if that's what it is, since Wilfredo starts right out telling us about problems -- constitutes a "silent majority." It certainly doesn't sound like a majority, since several of the posts are about problems, and it certainly isn't silent. Barjohn's post at the top of the second page of Wilfredo's thread pretty much says it all. Remember, barjohn was a serious M8 booster until reality began to creep in. Yes, I'd love to enjoy a dependable digital M, and I'm sure I'd enjoy the M8 if I weren't constantly concerned about it dying on me or developing some of the other problems it seems to develop with regularity. Statistical accuracy is one thing, but there are cases where anecdotal evidence is enough. I hope your M8s continue to function with the dependability you've come to depend on (to coin a phrase). You do produce some excellent photographs with them. Best regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted January 22, 2009 Share #48 Posted January 22, 2009 So Jaap has 1/50 = 2% and via my dealer I have 0/30 = 0% failure rate. A random set of 80 M8's with 1 failure in about 2 years since introduction sounds reliable enough for a small scale manufacturing operation. Numbers - not rumor. If you don't want to have one fine, if you do get one now. An M8 makes great pictures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenerrolrd Posted January 23, 2009 Share #49 Posted January 23, 2009 So Jaap has 1/50 = 2% and via my dealer I have 0/30 = 0% failure rate. A random set of 80 M8's with 1 failure in about 2 years since introduction sounds reliable enough for a small scale manufacturing operation. Numbers - not rumor. If you don't want to have one fine, if you do get one now. An M8 makes great pictures. Please don t imply that nobody else has numbers or that their experience is unusual. The initial M8 s were a nightmare . The recall cost leica a bundle ....remember the 30% off fiasco. Where do you think the many M8 s that overloaded the service network the next summer came from. Do you really believe that the people that post are just "blowing smoke" . They had so many problems posted at the rangefinder forum that they put up a subtopic for problem discussions. But that was never the point of Ed s post. Its if and when you have a problem that requires service ...that has been his gripe. If the repairs were done properly and on a timely basis...then he would forgotten about them . I am as committed to the Leica M8 system as anyone you will find. Have had 5 bodies ....and currently use 3 . For my type of shooting the M8 is perfect and I have found ways to work with the limitations of the service organization. My recommendation to anybody considering one is to be realistic about your expectations. Service thru NJ isn t a plus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammam Posted January 23, 2009 Share #50 Posted January 23, 2009 Now, let me get this straight. You send in your M8 for a warranty repair, you.ve put an after market covering on your camera, they have to remove that covering to do the repair which get damaged, and you expect them to replace that covering with their most expensive covering at no charge. I'm surprised that they did the repair at no charge as you tampered with the camera, by adding the aftermarket item in the first place. You are being rediculous...The only thing that they are responsible for are those parts and item which are original to the camera.! Yes, everybody knows that changing the outside cover can damage the sensor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmfabian Posted January 23, 2009 Share #51 Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, everybody knows that changing the outside cover can damage the sensor. To be honest, this is a very common practice. apple won't work on computers that you've modified or even attempted to open. Even adding one of those colored gels to change the color of the apple logo on laptops voids all waranties. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted January 23, 2009 Share #52 Posted January 23, 2009 I agree, Peter. You should expect something that is costly to be 100% reliable but it just isn't going to happen in the real world. I own two fairly expensive cars . . . both German. They both have had their share of problems . . . recalls, etc. Same thing with two motorcycles that I have . . . one German and one Italian. The German bike has spent about as much time in the shop as it has on the road. In fact I can't think of many things that I own that are 100% reliable. Not my DSLR. Not my laptop computer. Are craftsmen getting sloppier? Maybe. Are products getting more complicated? Certainly. That doesn't make me feel any better but it is the truth. I also own several German cars - actually 3 , 2 new MB's . When issues occur which is seldom the are repaired immediately and efficiently . My Canon DSLR's are repaired in days if service is required . My computers (Apple) - we have 5 in my family work as expected and when repair is needed which is seldom - it is done in a very timely fashion. There are no instances of any repairs that have been done to these products that have resulted in poorer performance after repair. The first time I have experienced that was with Leica. With Leica NJ , service is painfully slow , service dept. lacks communication with customer (prime example , two weeks and they have not responded to my emails-which were polite) , and in my case delivering a product that was in worse condition than received. My complaint is not w/ Leica , rather Leica Service in NJ . I purchased my M8 w/ my eyes wide open I knew there were issues (perhaps not as many as I discovered after ownership) , but I always thought that when problems arose service would repair. This is a reasonable assumption to make - that is where the reliability issue enters into the equation. I could go on my I hope you get my point. Sincerely PeterP Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nealf Posted January 23, 2009 Share #53 Posted January 23, 2009 This is another idiotic post. Yes I changed the covering, from the one that slips out of your hand easily to one that you can actually hold on to, as many M8 users have.It they have to damage the covering whe removing it they have to replace it anyway. So why should it cost me more, $330 which is total Bull Sh*t, to have the newer style installed on the camera. No you are the ridiculous one. What they are responsible for is selling a camera that doesn't break down multiple times. They apparently repaired the problem with the sensor NC, the covering that you had added to your camera was not a Leica product. I assume that the original factory covering was removed when the aftermarket covering was added. While it might be reasonable to expect them to replace the original factory covering with a similar coating, to expect them to put on their premium covering (which is much more expensive than the covering they had to remove) free of charge is unreasonable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nealf Posted January 23, 2009 Share #54 Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, everybody knows that changing the outside cover can damage the sensor. While the covering itself wouldn't damage the sensor the fact that it had been put on indicates that the camera had been tampered with in some way, with many companies this would be enough to void the warranty. If you send a Nikon or Canon camera in for repair and it has an aftermarket battery in it you've voided the warranty. These companies can be very picky about their warranties, they don't like doing things for free. I have had several items repaired by Leica NJ over the years an M3, an M4.2, a pair of binoculars, and even my M8 on one occasion, all were handled quickly, with good communication, and were well done. No complaints. The M8 was one of the first delivered and after about a year it had the shutter hangup, that was more that a year and a half ago and it has been 100% reliable ever since. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2009 Share #55 Posted January 23, 2009 Please don t imply that nobody else has numbers or that their experience is unusual. The initial M8 s were a nightmare . The recall cost leica a bundle ....remember the 30% off fiasco. Where do you think the many M8 s that overloaded the service network the next summer came from. Do you really believe that the people that post are just "blowing smoke" . They recalled 1500 cameras - smoothly. Is that a nightmare? My recalled camera is one of the two that are flawless. 30% off fiasco? I will take such a fiasco any day. They sold thousands of lenses and made a lot of money on that. They had so many problems posted at the rangefinder forum that they put up a subtopic for problem discussions. which is virtually unused for months on end - even in that troll-ridden forum.. But that was never the point of Ed s post. Its if and when you have a problem that requires service ...that has been his gripe. If the repairs were done properly and on a timely basis...then he would forgotten about them That is indisputable I am as committed to the Leica M8 system as anyone you will find. Have had 5 bodies ....and currently use 3 . For my type of shooting the M8 is perfect and I have found ways to work with the limitations of the service organization. My recommendation to anybody considering one is to be realistic about your expectations. Service thru NJ isn t a plus. And how is the reliability of yours? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share #56 Posted January 23, 2009 They apparently repaired the problem with the sensor NC, the covering that you had added to your camera was not a Leica product. I assume that the original factory covering was removed when the aftermarket covering was added. While it might be reasonable to expect them to replace the original factory covering with a similar coating, to expect them to put on their premium covering (which is much more expensive than the covering they had to remove) free of charge is unreasonable. I'm sorry A Premium Covering. And I thought I bought the TOP OF THE LINE LEICA M CAMERA. I wasn't aware I bought the lower entry level model camera with the lower entry level covering. Please get REAL. It is a CAMERA COVERING. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nealf Posted January 23, 2009 Share #57 Posted January 23, 2009 I'm sorry A Premium Covering. And I thought I bought the TOP OF THE LINE LEICA M CAMERA. I wasn't aware I bought the lower entry level model camera with the lower entry level covering. Please get REAL. It is a CAMERA COVERING. Apparently you saw it as an "entry level" covering as you opted for an aftermarket replacement. Leica offers the replacement covering for $300+ as an addition to your "entry level " camera. Yeah someone has to get "Real" here and it ain't me... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabelle Lenatio Posted January 23, 2009 Share #58 Posted January 23, 2009 "it ain't me" .... great Dylan song, totally off topic but still as long as the actual topic is going nowhere I chose to participate assisting it along its unfortunate path. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted January 23, 2009 Share #59 Posted January 23, 2009 I'm sorry A Premium Covering. And I thought I bought the TOP OF THE LINE LEICA M CAMERA. I wasn't aware I bought the lower entry level model camera with the lower entry level covering. Please get REAL. It is a CAMERA COVERING. I've got my own (mild) complaint with NJ service communication right now so I'm not going to jump to their defense categorically, but expecting them to put on a covering for you for free, which they charge the admittedly exorbitant price of $330 for everyone else (there's no way materials cost, the 15 minutes of service technician time, plus even a hefty handling /coffee break/we've got to inspect it fee, plus profit adds up to that...), is more than any company would do in the normal course of affairs. Call up or email Morgan at Camera Leather and get a new covering of your choice. Deep breaths and move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mboerma Posted January 23, 2009 Share #60 Posted January 23, 2009 So Jaap has 1/50 = 2% and via my dealer I have 0/30 = 0% failure rate. A random set of 80 M8's with 1 failure in about 2 years since introduction sounds reliable enough for a small scale manufacturing operation. Numbers - not rumor. If you don't want to have one fine, if you do get one now. An M8 makes great pictures. Stephen, I don't think these numbers are the whole story. I directly contacted Leica when I had problems and never consulted my dealer (in Amsterdam, Nivo Schweitzer). I'm sure people who don't have problems with their M8.x and are out taking photos(!) are the ones who come to a forum and complain about them. I wonder what the real numbers are and how they compare to a Phaseone or Hasselblad camera. You shouldn't compare a M8 to a D700 or 5D, IMHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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