Open letter to Stefan Daniel and Petition for initiating fw M8 lens identification

[salobaas]

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Signed. The intransigence of Leica on this simple matter defies all believe. Provide it as an option, if people leave it set to a wrong lens it is their mistake. But this can be easily fixed in post.

 

Cheers, Fons.

[Guest Xing]

What's really laughable is the fact that unlike other systems, the M8 system is easily hacked by hand-coding. Therefore Leica stands to gain little or nothing in terms of lens exclusivity by not giving in to the menu request, and much to lose in terms of customer goodwill by being purposely intractable. At least with the shutter-cock-delay lockout of upgraded M8s, Leica might be able to clear a few more M8.2s off their shelves, but I doubt that lack of a code menu is going to sell that many more multi-thousand-euro Leica lenses vs self-coding Zeiss and CV. In fact, even if there was a menu I venture to say that most people who shoot quickly with multiple lenses would opt to self-code vs resetting a menu every time they change lenses.

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[Guest malland]

Fons and Xing:

 

You've hit the nail on the head: Leica's maintaining this intransigent position is unreasonable and a fiasco that is costing it much more than it thinks in terms of loss of the goodwill of its customers.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

[Philippe D.]

I did sign (twice sorry), although i don't think Leica will agree to do that.

But it would be a nice move to customers if they do.

[delander †]

The coding is important to Leica even more so after they realised the extent of the IR problem. They wont make it open and why should they - it hits their bottom line when people go out and buy Zeiss/CV.

What they could do to ease the pain is set up a truly fast coding service at a more reasonable price for existing Leica lenses.

The coding system is Leica's intellectual property. Why bypass it to enable use of competitor's lenses?

 

Normally I'm quite a critic of Leica's marketing run arounds but I'm afraid I wont be voting yes to this.

 

Jeff

[nzav]

There has been extensive discussion of Leica's use of lens coding to identity lenses to the M8. Many of us feel that this is an extremely inconvenient and costly solution for the user and that this should be done, more simply, by providing for it in the M8 firmware, which is easy to implement. Accordingly, I have written an online petition to Andreas Kaufmann and Leica, which reads as follows:

 

 

 

You can sign the petition at the following link, and I encourage you to list in the Comment field the Leica-M camaras that you own:

 

Mitch,

 

When I got my first M8, I had a camera bag full of non-coded Leica lenses. My favorite was a Wetzlar 35 Summilux pre-ASPH that could not be coded because the mount was part of the helical focusing module. I coded the rest of the lenses, but wished for a solution to the 35 Summilux and did not like the "Sharpie" solutions floating around back then.

The concept of setting the lens type in the M8’s menu has been around for a while and sounded like a good idea. If you are shooting with primes, switching lenses is a necessary inconvenience that often needs to be accomplished as quickly as possible. After some thought about my shooting workflow, adding the need to open a menu and make a lens selection after changing a lens defeats the concept of a fast-working camera that has been the mainstay of photojournalists for decades.

Most pro camera manufacturers just kept piling on unnecessary, in some cases silly, features (face recognition for one) into their camera bodies, added loads of gold contacts in the lens mounts, and even made some of their mounts completely obsolete (Canon). This gave them an opportunity to create endless menu pages to wade through on the camera’s LCD.

To their credit, Leica’s engineers came up with an elegant way to allow most lenses to function even though they have only one mechanical link to the body — the focus cam. That a small few of the lenses cannot be updated (but still work) is a small price to pay. Also, some expect Leica to spend resources to help the camera identify non-Leica lenses. Those resources can be better used to fix issues with the current camera, not spent adapting CV or Zeiss optics. That should be the job of the third party lens makers as is customary with the SLR market. Neither Nikon nor Canon eases the way for users to mount competitors’ optics on their bodies.

You mention Nikon (which I also use) gives one the opportunity to add (older Nikon) lenses to the list of recognized optics. This is a feature which would more likely be used on a dSLR that is often shot at a slower pace than the Leica.

For me, it is more practical to replace a lens that can’t be coded with one that is; something I did with the 35 Summilux. I have been shooting Leica cameras since the 60’s and always liked the simplicity and speed with which one can shoot them. I have my pick of numerous dSLR cameras, and all of them present some form of complexity between a subject and me; something an M (whether M3 or M8) never does.

As a full-time photographer for four decades, I have used most SLR cameras (film and digital), but none have been as rewarding to shoot as the M series. Yet I also realize that the M cannot handle every project that I have encountered and have used various 35mm, MF, and LF up to 8x10 to get the job done.

Mitch, I am not arguing your point, just mentioning a different point of view and in no way presenting yours as less valid. I am also not apologizing for the known flaws in the M8; I just don’t see the coding issue as one of them.

[charlesphoto99]

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My first and only experience having a lens coded by Leica was them sending my 28 cron back with a 24mm mount after having it for over 8 weeks. Never again. I'm now having DAG code my lens for almost a third of the cost.

 

Anyway, I wrote on the petition "My Nikon has it, why shouldn't my (2) M8s." I think that about sums it up.

[bill]

Mitch, I take my hat off to you for trying something new and positive and encouraging others to join in instead of falling into the trap of starting yet another whinge-thread. Your petition gets my vote.

 

EDIT: I note that some people have already tried to "add" further issues in the text of their comments - c'mon guys! This petition will be devalued to the level of the background noise in this sub-forum if you drag it down to a general whinge-fest.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[mlesser]

Great idea, even if Leica does not respond it's a good idea to let them know how we feel about the matter.

[lct]

lct: Bon, je m'en fous pas mal de ce que vous pensez...

Ce n'est pas réciproque mon ami, je suis très intéressé par ce que vous pensez.

Un peu plus de politesse serait apprécié cependant. Mais cela n'est sans doute pas volontaire. 'Se foutre' veut dire 'to piss out of s.o/sth'. Not very classy is it.

[BerndReini]

Provide the stupid firmware. The IR filter dilemma is Leica's fault in the first place, so fix it and let me use the few other lenses I own without having to scribble them up with a sharpie.

[Steve Ash]

I like the simplicity and the lack of gimmicks of the M-System design. With only coded lenses in my pocket I do not like the idea to see another item in the menue.

 

Of course this is my personnel, selfish point of view.

 

From Leica's point of view your idea withdraws one reason to by new lenses versus used ones.

 

 

Regards

Steve

[lars_bergquist]

I like the simplicity and the lack of gimmicks of the M-System design. With only coded lenses in my pocket I do not like the idea to see another item in the menue. ...

Nobody has asked Leica to abolish coding, so why should this scheme make already coded lenses less convenient? Also, the Nikon lens menu is limited to (I think) five positions.

 

The old man from the Age When Only Spies Coded

[vdb]

Signed, and thanks for doing this Mitch. What's the harm?

[Guest malland]

After being up for 24 hours, the petition has been signed by 144 people, after deducting 14 prank signatures. Here are some of the comments posted:

 

The price of owning Leica digital gear is already through the roof. Many people will sacrifice a lot to get a M8, but then all they can afford is second-hand Leica lenses. The cost and the hassle of having them coded is totally unncessary and unjustified, and perceived by many as an abusive way for Leica to pump as much money as possible from the pockets of their customers.

 

Own M2, M8 and a variety of coded Leica lenses. I do not really want to modify my non-coded Leica lenses (by machining or replacement of the flange). It just seems criminal to defile such masterpieces. So please include a manual lens selection in the firmware.

 

I cannot work without my Leica lenses long enough to send them to be coded.

 

I own an MP and six lenses, none of which are coded. The expense of coding, as well as the risk of shipping damage/loss is the main reason I have not bought an M8. The ability to use old lenses on a digital camera is very appealing to me.

 

Excellent update idea for an excellent camera.

 

I stay in Singapore. Its takes at least 1month to code lenses. Its not possible for me to do it, as result I need to use 3rd party software to fix it (cornerfix)

 

I´am also missing this feature al lot and it is one of the reasons why I waited for years to get an M8. I would only invest in a future M9 if it also - besides lenses - has a lens identification firmware, at least for LEITZ and LEICA lenses.

 

I own an M8, M6, M5, MP, MP3, M3, M2, R9, R4, and SL2, as well as over a dozen lenses. I have owned Leicas since 1963. I am heavily committed to Leica mentally, emotionally, and financially. I agree that Leica AG would serve the interests of its numerous R8 customers by making lens identification in software an alternative to having their lenses coded by Leica AG. I cannot think of a good reason for Leica AG not to offer this option if it has any sense of responsibility to its loyal customers, as I believe and trust that it does.

 

I support making Leica M8 firmware possible ti identify the Leica lens attached -- rather than coding at $175 for each lense.

 

i done it. If you in Asia, its takes at least 1month to code anything, so there is no way i can do it.

 

I own and use M8 extensively, and it is a great camera! Adding this in the firmware would be of great help, I will not send any lenses for coding anyway because of costs and waiting time...

 

I own and enjoy using an M8, an M6 ttl, and eight different lenses. For financial and logistical reasons (pita factor), of these, only three have been coded. Several viable hand-coding solutions have proliferated over the course of the M8s lifespan, which have already largely eliminated any economic in incentive for not implementing a firmware-based means for lens identification.

 

I have been a loyal Leica customer for 20 years, and I feel this is the least Leica can do.

 

Please implement this option as it makes tremendous sense, or explain very carefully why this cannot be done.

 

I do have many Leica lenses and 3 Zeiss. I do not have over 1000 Euro to spend in coding all those lenses.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

[giordano]

Nobody has asked Leica to abolish coding, so why should this scheme make already coded lenses less convenient? Also, the Nikon lens menu is limited to (I think) five positions.

 

The D700 has nine positions. Not enough for all my old lenses:(

[fotografr]

Andreas:

 

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean: the site ids free and I see any mention of PayPal.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

 

When I signed the petition, a subsequent page popped up directing me to pay $10. I did not do it and have no idea if my signature was recorded.

[Guest malland]

Brent:

 

There is a "Brent N...." there, is that you? You can check yourself by going to:

 

Initiate lens identification in Leica M8 firmware Petition : [ powered by iPetitions.com ]

 

I found the Brent signature on page 4.

 

—Mitch/Potomac, MD

Bangkok Hysteria©: Book Project - a set on Flickr

[coup de foudre]

When I signed the petition, a subsequent page popped up directing me to pay $10. I did not do it and have no idea if my signature was recorded.

that's exactly what you need to do -- close the window when it asks you to pay -- it will record your name.

 

you can always come back to the link here to check your name. otherwise, if you try to go back and start again to try and make it go away, your name will be recorded multiple times (as it was with mine -- oops!).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Olsen]

the IR problem is not 'Leica's fault'. It is a physical limitation with today's sensors. And it just might be around for a few more years down the road. So will vignetting with wide angle lenes.

 

It is worth noting how Voigtländer/Cosina and Carl Zeiss have prospered on the launch of the M8. While Leica has spent all it's profit on fixing red lines, their competitors are laughing all the way to the bank, due to the good sales of particularly ZM lenses.

 

And how did these ZM lenses come about? As lenses to a camera that were delayed almost 3 years and were totally insignificant in the market when it finally were found on the shelves; the new Zeiss Ikon. Hadn't it been for the M8 the ZM lenses would have died right there and then. That was like slipping on the ice - and finding a hundred dollars.

 

So, Leica carries the cost of developing a camera with technology out in the corners of what is possible - and gets all the mouth. While lucky competitors sell cheap lenses.

 

'Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country' - remember that one? This is the same thing. What can we do to make Leica survive? Will an open lens code system save Leica, - really? I am not so sure.

 

We should buy their lenses. Now!