Open letter to Stefan Daniel and Petition for initiating fw M8 lens identification

[delander †]

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All this is getting extremely complex. My new lenses I bought coded, my secondhand Leica lenses I had them coded and of course that involves Leica checking them over so that they focus correctly. All this was done months ago and is now behind me.

 

For those with Zeiss or CV lenses any local good machine shop should be able to mill a slight recess in the lens mount in the correct area. You can then paint the sharpie marks into the recess (they will no longer rub off) to emulate the nearest Leica lens. If there is a screw in the way and it is important to Zeiss or CV they should re-design the mount to avoid this. It is not Leica's responsibility.

 

Or Leica could license the coding intellectual property to other lens makers if it so wished. Coded Zeiss or CV lenses could then be used on the M8 etc. This would result in a large price hike on such lenses but that would not matter to those that bought Zeiss or CV because they preferred the performance of those lenses over Leica's. Everyone would gain, Leica would get a financial reward for each and every lens, Zeiss/CV would sell more lenses for M8 use and Zeiss/CV lens fans would enjoy the performance of their preferred lens. This of course would only work if the main driver for buying Zeiss/CV was not just lower cost.

 

If Leica produces a new digital M with a larger sensor then coding/correction will become even more important.

 

Has it ever occured to forum members that Leica's patent on coding and in software correction is in fact what has inhibited Zeiss and CV or anyone else from producing their own DRF? You need it for a camera with a reasonably sized sensor.

 

Please Leica get on with making an improved DRF and dont worry about this stuff.

 

Jeff

[sandymc]

Now for the M line all you would need is the cyan drift corrections and as Sandy has done in Corner fix . maybe sell that to Phase Sandy. LOL

 

Well, CornerFix is open source, so anyone can download the source code, and if they are feeling unethical, copy it. It's quite possible that Phase One (and/or Leica for that matter) have already taken a look at the code - one interesting thing with CornerFix has been the sheer number of people that have downloaded the source code relative to the compiled application; far greater in proportion than other open source project I've been involved with. Not that either party really would need the code - they're quite capable of developing their own, but they may well have been curious to see how CornerFix does what it does.

 

Sandy

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[Guest Olof]

Leica wants to earn money thats why they produces camera and lenses, why should they allow their users to use other lenses than their own

[Guest volkerm]

Leica wants to earn money thats why they produces camera and lenses, why should they allow their users to use other lenses than their own

 

Why do almost all the other camera manufacturers allow their customers to use other lenses than their own?

Are the Leica lenses so poor that they need this extra protection? I don't think so.

[plasticman]

Incidentally, although this may not be the place to ask, which of the 'do-it-yourself' options do people consider to be the best? I really don't want to send off my 21.

 

Besides, the whole cottage-industry producing mounts and d-i-y fixes pretty much negates the whole argument about Leica selling more lenses by keeping the system in hardware. While I applaud the industrious folk who've benefited, I still see the whole procedure as inconvenient for the customer and yet another of Leica's own-goals.

 

mani

[delander †]

As someone who has had patents granted and spent a lot of his working life trying to invent stuff I find these requests for Leica to effectively give up its intellectual property so that its competitors can sell more lenses quite unrealistic. No company does this. Imagine where MS, Adobe, Apple, pharmaceutical companies etc would be if they just gave away their technology.

 

You can of course use non-Leica lenses on an M8. There are effective work arounds available, they may be a bit of an inconvenience but it can be done. You are asking Leica to provide the workaround duh!If a lens does not physically fit would you ask Leica to modify the camera?

 

Jeff

[stunsworth]

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Incidentally, although this may not be the place to ask, which of the 'do-it-yourself' options do people consider to be the best? I really don't want to send off my 21.

 

For a non-Leica solution, Voigtlander lenses with adaptors by John Milich.

 

I went down the 'sharpie' self coding route and found it to be a pain in the rear. The marking wore off very quickly, and even with a template it was sometimes difficult to get the coding in the correct place.

 

If you only have that one lens that needs coding I'd suggest sending it in.

[farnz]

As someone who has had patents granted and spent a lot of his working life trying to invent stuff I find these requests for Leica to effectively give up its intellectual property so that its competitors can sell more lenses quite unrealistic. No company does this. Imagine where MS, Adobe, Apple, pharmaceutical companies etc would be if they just gave away their technology.

 

You can of course use non-Leica lenses on an M8. There are effective work arounds available, they may be a bit of an inconvenience but it can be done. You are asking Leica to provide the workaround duh!If a lens does not physically fit would you ask Leica to modify the camera?

 

Jeff

Well put, Jeff, and I totally agree.

 

Since the patent on the M mount ran out some years ago perhaps we should be thankful that Leica didn't choose to protect its IPR by using a new proprietary M8 mount and a new set of lenses instead. Like it will with the S2 ...

 

Pete.

[Guest volkerm]

As someone who has had patents granted and spent a lot of his working life trying to invent stuff I find these requests for Leica to effectively give up its intellectual property so that its competitors can sell more lenses quite unrealistic.

 

What is the intellectual property here?

 

It think the intellectual property is the optical "bar code" detection of the lenses. This is indeed a smart solution, and I can understand that Leica will not open this to other manufacturers. Fully agreed.

 

Entering the lens data from the menu is something different. This is not a complete workaround of their optical encoding IP, as the DIY coding is.

 

You can of course use non-Leica lenses on an M8.

 

I don't understand why the menu solution is always reduced to the aspect of non Leica lenses. I have a bunch of Leica lenses which are not coded, some of them purchased brand new recently from old stock. They could be coded, but to me, the added value of coding lenses which are only used once in a while (multiple lenses which the same focal length) is too small. To me, a loyal Leica customer, coding all the lenses is a PITA and makes the purchase of M8 less attractive.

 

What is ironic is that coding does not even prevent people from buying cheap third party lenses, as there are many ways to get these lenses coded. It just makes those guys happy who sell workaround solutions.

[delander †]

I understand the situation with regard to uncoded Leica lenses. But you cant have one without the other. Bypass Leica's six little marks by a menu item and you open up the whole system to the use of Zeiss/Cv lenses.

 

I made the suggestion earlier in this thread that Leica make a special effort to help owners of older Leica lenses.

 

Presumably if just recently you purchased current lenses without coding, you knew what you were doing.

 

Jeff

[farnz]

When we're talking about intellectual property do we actually mean USP (unique selling point)?

 

As Volkerm rightly points out the IP resides in the 6-bit system but it also resides in Leica's lens design, although it's unlikely that that's pertinent here.

 

So what appears to me to be in question here is what would encourage a buyer to buy a Leica lens over the competitions'? The 6-bit system will allow new wide angle Leica lenses to perform better through firmware correction so to allow non-Leica lenses to be equally corrected through menus or whatever would risk giving away that USP and market advantage. That wouldn't appear to me to support Leica's 'lifeblood', which is selling lenses.

 

Pete.

[Raf DeBoeck]

I actually see both lines of argumentation here, Leicas and the users, something to be said for both actually.

 

However the lens coding exercise would prevent me from buying an M8, partly that is for there are other reasons such as service, quality and price, but lens-coding and the cost involved is definitely a show stopper for me.

 

This would perhaps change if the purchase price of an M8 would lower, or if I had a lot more disposable income, neither being the case .... I will continue to overly and utterly enjoy some of the M8 images in the gallery here, and prize myself lucky not owning an M8 whilst reading all the negativities about it's quality. Between these two activities I will continue using my G10, GRD and DP1 with great pleasure and fun and still have enough disposable income in my bank account to occasionally purchase a memory card or 2.

[stunsworth]

This would perhaps change if the purchase price of an M8 would lower, or if I had a lot more disposable income, neither being the case...

 

There's currently a £650 rebate onthe M8 in the UK. Does that count as a lower price?

 

The only lenses that _need_ to be coded in my experience are 28mm and wider. I am currently using a 35mm Pre-ASPH Summilux that can't be coded, and I'm very happy with the results.

[Raf DeBoeck]

Hi Steve,

 

where would I look on the internet for such an offer .... this might be interesting enough to investigate taking the currency rates into account.

 

You can of course send me a PM if you don't want to compromise anybody or anything putting this info in the forum.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Raf

 

Ps. and as for the 35mm, I didn't know that either .... Its my favorite "film" lens

[delander †]

Dealer locater on Leica UK or Robert White, Ffordes, Harrison Cameras, Richard Caplan, Red Dot cameras etc lots more

 

Jeff

[Raf DeBoeck]

I just found out that Leica has a student and education program, checked their requirements and fitting every pre-requisite I can get 25% of the M8.2 or the M8 which makes it attractive, well appealing actually.

 

 

Well, let me clarify... I have nothing to do with anything related to education, but my wife does :-)

[PeterP]

I just found out that Leica has a student and education program, checked their requirements and fitting every pre-requisite I can get 25% of the M8.2 or the M8 which makes it attractive, well appealing actually.

 

 

Well, let me clarify... I have nothing to do with anything related to education, but my wife does :-)

 

The equipment will be registered in your wife's name (per Leica's student education program)

so don't plan on getting divorced.