Why does the M8 need a mechanical shutter?

[Pedro]

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Couldn't the M8 work like a compact camera, without a mechanical shutter, and just control the exposure timing electronically?

 

The point is that we keep discussing about how silent the M8.2 really is when any compact camera (e.g. my Panasonic LX3) is absolutely silent - no sound at all.

 

For any film camera - you need a mechanical shutter. For any SLR (due to the mirror) you need a mechanical shutter. For the M8 I do not get it.

[Guest volkerm]

With a mechanical shutter, you have much less trouble with CCD overload (blooming).

 

Some early DSLR used a hybrid shutter that combines a slow mechanical shutter (on the order of 1/100s) with an electronic shutter at sensor level. My experience with these cameras was not so good - obvious blooming problems when shooting with fast lenses wide open.

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[lars_bergquist]

The closed shutter before the exposure means that the photo diode 'photon wells' are completely discharged and empty before the exposure fills them up. Also, after long exposures the camera makes a subsequent and equal 'null exposure' of the dark back of the shutter curtain, which is then deducted from the first exposure in order to reduce noise.

 

All better digital cameras---INCLUDING compacts---do have a mechanical shutter for these reasons. But, like the old-time Compur or Prontor leaf shutters of SLR cameras, they remain open between shots, for focusing or live view respectively, and are closed before the exposure ... while the mirror was rising, in the old Contaflexes, and later after the exposure, while it was going down and the film was transported.

 

The old man from the Age of the Reflex Compur

[Guest bwcolor]

Pedro's question is excellent, I think and goes to the heart of the problem with Leica and the M series. Leica considers the M something that should be changed as little as possible from the prior film members of the series. So it must have a focal plane mechanical shutter. The problem is that Leica may, or may not, see that the state of the art, even in rangefinder, is not the M series, but a new series of compact cameras with new thinking entirely. And Pedros shutter, capable of live view, etc., should be a part of that new thinking. Why would it not be possible to have the old lenses still used with a modern live view type shutter, and many other modern refinements, and even with the same rangefinder as the M? Again, I suppose many will be angered or contemptuous of any thinking that isn't pure M, pure Leica. The company needs a new Barnak.

[tashley]

Also you'd lose the joy of choosing second or fist curtain shutter sync.... sigh....

[Alberti]

This debate to me is probably like a CCD vs CMOS war between schools of thought.

The quality and rendering of depth and details in the one versus the type of plasticity of the other. Well, for me, even though the Leica compacts look nice on the web, I am not convoinced about the cmos, ie the way the canons etc perform.

And I dont 'need' live preview, I have a marvelous viewer for an instant 'allways on' real/life view. I bet you, this viewer costs 20% of the camera body.

But should I consider a G1? I am not sure at all, just for simplicity in the shutter.

alberti

[lars_bergquist]

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So you think that the M8 development team clung to the mechanical shutter from sheer inertia? Then they are really incompetent and you should avoid that product like the plague.

 

And if you did that, then you would have nothing to gripe about. Agreed?

 

The old man from the Age of the Leica IIIa

[ljclark]

For any SLR (due to the mirror) you need a mechanical shutter.

 

Really? DSLRs too?

[Guest volkerm]

Really? DSLRs too?

 

See my post above ... all DSLR with electronic shutter that I used so far suffered from CCD overload (blooming) with fast lenses. As of today, a fast mechanical shutter seems to be the best option.

[Sam J. Samaha]

Clearly a mechanical shutter is the way to go for any professional camera, I can't think of a single pro camera without it. My 5D being a prime example of this.

[earleygallery]

Less heat, less (electrical) noise, probably less of a problem with dust, = better quality photographs. Any more justification required?

[wparsonsgisnet]

Well, I'm with Pedro. Where the hell are the creative electrical engineers in all this?

 

The M8 is electronic. Why should it have mechanical noise?

 

Let's have a sensor that's "off" until it turns "on" instantaneously. C'mon you engineer guys. That's what you get the big bucks for.

 

So far, I've gotten the D2 and the M8 wishes, and lately the Fast Wide Prime wish. Now I want a silent shutter. So far, Leica has granted all my wishes....

 

Radical -- how about a sensor replacement for the D2 that has better high-iso noise specs. The D2 defines quiet. Other things equal I'd take the image from the M8 over that of the D2, but with better noise performance the D2's silence would be exactly what the doctor ordered in theater locales (not to mention funerals -- a good dose of black humor for the first month of the year).

[Sam J. Samaha]

Well, I'm with Pedro. Where the hell are the creative electrical engineers in all this?

 

The M8 is electronic. Why should it have mechanical noise?

 

Let's have a sensor that's "off" until it turns "on" instantaneously. C'mon you engineer guys. That's what you get the big bucks for.

 

So far, I've gotten the D2 and the M8 wishes, and lately the Fast Wide Prime wish. Now I want a silent shutter. So far, Leica has granted all my wishes....

 

Radical -- how about a sensor replacement for the D2 that has better high-iso noise specs. The D2 defines quiet. Other things equal I'd take the image from the M8 over that of the D2, but with better noise performance the D2's silence would be exactly what the doctor ordered in theater locales (not to mention funerals -- a good dose of black humor for the first month of the year).

 

 

(((( OFF TOPIC WARNING ))))

 

This is my attempt at a metaphor, so bare with meh.. I have found that with all things German, the electronic engineering isn't the "Bleeding" edge found in things "Asian".... Where the Germans excel however is in Mechanical Engineering.. Prime example of this is cars.. I own both MB and BMW cars for their "Mechanical" design aspects.. whether the build quality, or the chassis and fit and finish is as good as it gets on a production car... But I have friends with higher end Japanese cars from Toyota, Nissan and Honda that have far fancier electronics packages and "GeeWiz" features in their often less expensive cars, but frankly, when I drive them.... they're sterile and don't have that Teutonic road feel that I love in my German cars!

 

Gosh, same goes for my model trains, and just about anything German I have...

 

I always say, German firms should farm out their electronics to the Japanese... what a formable product that would yield!

 

(BTW.. I'd argue the German cars of today, are not differentiated from their competition as they were thru the 80s', but that's a topic for a different forum).

[ljclark]

See my post above ... all DSLR with electronic shutter that I used so far suffered from CCD overload (blooming) with fast lenses. As of today, a fast mechanical shutter seems to be the best option.

 

So the answer, regarding DSLRs, is not that they MUST have mechanical shutters, but that at the present state of technology, there are identifiable advantages to having a mechanical shutter.

[wparsonsgisnet]

Just think what a new electronic shutter would do for the camera market!

 

Guys all over the world would be replacing their camera bodies to get the new no-noise shutter.

 

C'mon, you engineers. It's broke. Fix it.

[Guest rontr6]

Being of a certain age I actually like a shutter that makes a nice click, my wife's digi camera shutter is in silent mode and it feels odd taking a completely silent photo.

Ron

[adan]

C'mon, you engineers. It's broke. Fix it.

 

Bill, if you are an engineer, step right up and be my guest. Show us how it's done.

 

If you aren't an engineer, (with all due respect) perhaps you shouldn't be trying to tell them how to do their job?

 

I ain't a car engineer, but obviously if NASA can get to the moon and back on one tank of gas, Ford ought to be able to build a car that can go 500,000 miles on one fill-up as well.

 

C'mon, you engineers. It's broke. Fix it.

 

R-i-i-ght!

[elviskennedy]

With a plutonium pellet it would be simple for a car to run for centuries (and then some) on one fill up. As always, it's the financial aspect that's the hang up.

 

Making a sensor that's immune to 'blooming' sounds less expensive than a plutonium car.

[wparsonsgisnet]

I am not in the business, but am ready to buy one. Only a few years ago, Leica could "not make a digital M body."

 

I already have the prototype. It's call a Digilux 2.

 

As I said, the prize is a sale of a body to every digicam photog in the business.

 

And we know that selling bodies is the oldest business in the world.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Skippy Sanchez]

wouldn't a non-mechanical shutter like those in point n' shoots & my old digilux II be cursed with shutter lag?