Guest Essemmlee Posted December 17, 2008 Share #161 Posted December 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Confusion reigns at Leica. What an unholy mess they are making of this. All the while the Nikon sleeper agent (deep in the heart of the Leica board) is strongly advising more price increases. It's working. I'll keep my M8 and my glass but I'm off to the D3 and I'll invest in the latest technology because it works and it's cheaper. Even if it broke completely it's still cheaper to replace the whole thing than adding a bit of extra tin for my new framelines in my M8. I can't get my head round it but I feel now for the poor sods who may buy the beta version of the S2 - they're about to be shafted for larger sums than I could earn in a year. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 17, 2008 Posted December 17, 2008 Hi Guest Essemmlee, Take a look here new upgrade prices. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SJP Posted December 17, 2008 Share #162 Posted December 17, 2008 Meanwhile I am a happy camper as instead of saving 1400 euro by not having the upgrade I am now saving 2000 euro by not having the upgrade. I just saved 600 euro by doing nothing. But I agree the prices seem to be exorbitant (extortionate) - 1000 euro for a sapphire glass upgrade? They must be kidding. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted December 17, 2008 Share #163 Posted December 17, 2008 It is not exactly Leica's fault that some users are throwing out their hair. It is their problem that they feel that they are obliged to upgrade. It is what capitalism works. Consumerism and "the real needs". Yes and no. The frameline upgrade is almost obligatory, unless you are willing to crop 20% or more off your image. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted December 17, 2008 Share #164 Posted December 17, 2008 It seems there is noting wrong with lens sales, I ordered a 21 Summilux.But did Leica do so much wrong with this price hike as perceived in their home country? I doubt it; on the German M8 forum: not even a thread on the subject:rolleyes: Dream on. I just spent a day visiting all the Leica outlets in Munich (while getting a new visa, work, work, work!) and it was painfully obvious, and explicity detailed that Leica's stuff is glued to the shelf. Nothing was selling. I did get to listen to an M8.2 and the modest difference between my M8 and the upgrade spec had me thinking it wasnt worth it after all. So from being prepared to spend 1200 or 1400 for the whole upgrade, I now find myself thinking 'f*** you Leica'. Not for the first time.... Nothing is obligatory at these fantasy land prices. I just bought a 400 Euro VC 28/2, I struggle to spot a difference to my 3000 Eur Leica 28/2. There may be on a FF camera, but that is, as they say, a whole different ball game (that Leica arent even in) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted December 17, 2008 Share #165 Posted December 17, 2008 I might have considered upgrading my M8, but at these prices... Forget it. I'm also not in the market for an M8.2 at that price point. Leica is losing touch with reality, IMO. As Leica shooters we can accept a certain level of "premiums" but this is insanity. Are these price increases the product of the promised ones in 2009 - or is that going to push these prices even higher? Or does that only relate to new product sales and not service/upgrades? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 17, 2008 Share #166 Posted December 17, 2008 Some posters have complained that Leica's price increases are an indication of capitalism failing the consumer. But the consumer has the ultimate vote. If the prices are too high, don't buy. There are, after all, alternatives, and if there were more competitive alternatives to Leica's digital RF, Leica would be forced by competition to be more nimble and more price competitive. Of course I am speculating, but Leica may have deliberately raised the price knowing that so doing would decrease demand for upgrades. They may have decided that the upgrade policy was a mistake (neither Canon nor Nikon would implement such a policy; they simply develop and market new models and you can decide or not to "upgrade" by trading in) or that they would like to take some resources devoted to upgrades and redeploy them, or they would rather those of us with M8s buy M8.2's. But if you don't like the policy, nobody is compelling you to buy either an upgrade or a M8.2 and you can vote with your feet by either forgoing the upgrades or forgoing Leica entirely in favor of something else. But please do not complain that you are powerless as you are not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2008 Share #167 Posted December 17, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's hope that this is the last of Mr. Lee's decisions that backfires... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted December 17, 2008 Share #168 Posted December 17, 2008 As a longtime lurker this thread is giving me the best laugh! All the defenders and supporters are suddenly bashing Leica, but of course because they do it, it's ok And before, when the US prices went up--lots more than the factor of dollar:Euro, all the Europeens were defending Leica, but now when the shoe is on the other foot, oh the outrage! That's unfair, as I remember that many European people on this forum were supportive of US-based ones. Having said that, just how long do you think the price increase will remain confined to the Old Continent? The USD is heading towards 1.5 to the EUR as we speak... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Negative Posted December 17, 2008 Share #169 Posted December 17, 2008 Some posters have complained that Leica's price increases are an indication of capitalism failing the consumer. But the consumer has the ultimate vote. If the prices are too high, don't buy. There are, after all, alternatives, and if there were more competitive alternatives to Leica's digital RF, Leica would be forced by competition to be more nimble and more price competitive. Of course I am speculating, but Leica may have deliberately raised the price knowing that so doing would decrease demand for upgrades. They may have decided that the upgrade policy was a mistake (neither Canon nor Nikon would implement such a policy; they simply develop and market new models and you can decide or not to "upgrade" by trading in) or that they would like to take some resources devoted to upgrades and redeploy them, or they would rather those of us with M8s buy M8.2's. But if you don't like the policy, nobody is compelling you to buy either an upgrade or a M8.2 and you can vote with your feet by either forgoing the upgrades or forgoing Leica entirely in favor of something else. But please do not complain that you are powerless as you are not. You're right. In addition to keeping my M8 as it is, I won't buy the M8.2, either. So how does *that* help Leica? It helps me, anyway - I just saved a bunch of money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted December 17, 2008 Share #170 Posted December 17, 2008 .......But if you don't like the policy, nobody is compelling you to buy either an upgrade or a M8.2 and you can vote with your feet by either forgoing the upgrades or forgoing Leica entirely in favor of something else. But please do not complain that you are powerless as you are not. Fully agree - and I can hear the deafening noise of voting feet here:D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted December 17, 2008 Share #171 Posted December 17, 2008 Some posters have complained that Leica's price increases are an indication of capitalism failing the consumer. But the consumer has the ultimate vote. If the prices are too high, don't buy. There are, after all, alternatives, and if there were more competitive alternatives to Leica's digital RF, Leica would be forced by competition to be more nimble and more price competitive. Of course I am speculating, but Leica may have deliberately raised the price knowing that so doing would decrease demand for upgrades. They may have decided that the upgrade policy was a mistake (neither Canon nor Nikon would implement such a policy; they simply develop and market new models and you can decide or not to "upgrade" by trading in) or that they would like to take some resources devoted to upgrades and redeploy them, or they would rather those of us with M8s buy M8.2's. But if you don't like the policy, nobody is compelling you to buy either an upgrade or a M8.2 and you can vote with your feet by either forgoing the upgrades or forgoing Leica entirely in favor of something else. But please do not complain that you are powerless as you are not. You raise some good points but we can't necessarily draw the conclusion that Leica thinks the upgrade policy was a mistake. Perhaps after seeing the high demand for upgrades, Leica decided to see how much the market would bear. After all, if someone would pay 800 EUR for a sapphire glass upgrade, why not see if they will pay 1150 EUR? I can't imagine that Leica isn't making a tidy profit replacing LCD covers, shutters, and frame lines at those prices. If not, they either have something wrong in the basic design of the cameras or have really slow and badly manged technicians. My suggestion would be for Leica to add a PC socket. That should be worth another thousand or so. I would think Canon and Nikon would love to make money offering upgrades if they could figure out how and what to offer that their customers would go for. Nikon has a history of offering memory upgrades. I don't think too many Nikon or Canon owners would be willing to spend 1150 Euro for a sapphire glass screen cover. They don't need frame line replacements and there probably isn't much they could do about their shutters. So what kind of comparable items could they upgrade? I think Canon only charges about $400 for a 1D series shutter replacement, so they probably don't look at this kind of work as a big profit center. More like a realistically priced service for their customers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted December 17, 2008 Share #172 Posted December 17, 2008 Let's hope that this is the last of Mr. Lee's decisions that backfires... Not sure you can put all the blame on Mr. Lee. The concept was/is good. It's just being terribly managed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 17, 2008 Share #173 Posted December 17, 2008 Scene: A small camera factory in Hesse, Germany. Stefan Daniel enters Andreas Kaufmann's office. Stefan: Andreas, I need a word. Andreas: What is it Stefan, you look worried... Stefan: The peasants are revolting... Andreas: I know, I can't stand them, and the smell! Stefan: No, I mean the people on the User Forum... Andreas: What are they complaining about now? We gave them the black camera with those silver chrome parts we ordered by mistake, didn't we? Stefan: No, it's not that.... Andreas: And we're giving away the brown case with a C-Lux 2 that nobody wants... Stefan: No, it's the upgrade program price increases, they're not happy Andreas: Well somebody's got to pay off Stephen K Lee and the upgrade program was his idea... Stefan: They're saying they never want to buy anything from Leica ever again [sobs quietly to himself] Andreas: They're fools, they don't know what's good for them! Stefan: We need to sweeten the deal... but how? Andreas: I know, we'll give a free gift to every upgrader... Stefan: Yes, but what - a free return mailer for when it fails under warranty? Andreas: No, a Digilux 3! They've just found another container of the things in a warehouse in Frankfurt... Enter Maike Harberts... Maike: Guys, we've got the year wrong! Andreas: Still 2008 last time I checked... Maike: No, the year when we said the S2 would be ready - 2009! Andreas: 2009! Yes, that was the date for the final mock-up wasn't it? Maike: No, we told them the camera would be ready... finished Stefan Hah Hah Hah - it's not just the M department which misses its dates Andreas: Quiet, Stefan, they want one which, err.... works? Maike: And at least one lens... Andreas: We could show them a mock-up of those too, like we did at Photokina Maike: And... they want... a professional support service! Andreas: That's too much! What's wrong with the amateurish support service we offer now? Maike: They want a 24 hour repair turnaround... Stefan: They'll be asking for free loaners next... Maike: ...and they want free loaners as well Andreas: But they'll all be in for repair as well! [Convulsive laughter] Andreas: Still, at least we've got the new M lenses ready. They are ready, aren't they, Stefan? Stefan: They're going to be late... Andreas: The 21mm Summilux? Stefan: Late Andreas: The 24mm Summilux? Stefan: Late Andreas: The 24mm Elmar? Stefan: Late Andreas: The 28mm Chrome Summicron Stefan: Late Andreas: The Noctilux? Stefan: February... Andreas: That's what we told them, February 2009! Stefan: ...2010 Andreas: Doesn't anything ever get done on time in this place? Stefan/Maike: Yes! Andreas: What? Stefan/Maike: The new 2009 Price List! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. de Ridder Posted December 17, 2008 Share #174 Posted December 17, 2008 Barking dogs don't bite, so the saying goes. Eventually you will submit to getting the M8.2 or the upgrades to your M8 achieving similar. Why you might ask? .... you can't live without it, no matter the stupidity, % of increase or pricing, you will not be able to resist. I just got my M8.2, my wife told me I was nuts, my friends tell me I'm a complete idiot, I look in the mirror and tell myself "they are all very right" but then I hold my M8, stroke the top murmor a "who gives a xxxx" and just sit there smiling. Don#t forget you have already invested a load of cash into a camera, which as a camera is clearly not worth it, you will do it again, mark my word for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2008 Share #175 Posted December 17, 2008 Not sure you can put all the blame on Mr. Lee. The concept was/is good. It's just being terribly managed. From a company survival point of view it was terrible. Borgward died because of similar ideas. The cars were so good that people just kept fitting newer parts. In the end nobody bought a new one any more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAG Posted December 17, 2008 Share #176 Posted December 17, 2008 Scene: A small camera factory in Hesse, Germany. Stefan Daniel enters Andreas Kaufmann's office. Stefan: Andreas, I need a word. Andreas: What is it Stefan, you look worried... Stefan: The peasants are revolting... <snip> Stefan/Maike: Yes! Andreas: What? Stefan/Maike: The new 2009 Price List! :D:D Mark, I will hire you for dialogs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted December 17, 2008 Share #177 Posted December 17, 2008 Barking dogs don't bite, so the saying goes. Eventually you will submit to getting the M8.2 or the upgrades to your M8 achieving similar. Why you might ask? .... you can't live without it, no matter the stupidity, % of increase or pricing, you will not be able to resist. I just got my M8.2, my wife told me I was nuts, my friends tell me I'm a complete idiot, I look in the mirror and tell myself "they are all very right" but then I hold my M8, stroke the top murmor a "who gives a xxxx" and just sit there smiling. Don#t forget you have already invested a load of cash into a camera, which as a camera is clearly not worth it, you will do it again, mark my word for it. Wow! At last some music to Leica's ears in this thread... See guys: there's hope! I must say that was my behaviour a while ago. Mind you: I still love my M8, and these wonderful lenses. But there's only so much shafting you can take... Mark my word. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. de Ridder Posted December 17, 2008 Share #178 Posted December 17, 2008 Wow! At last some music to Leica's ears in this thread...See guys: there's hope! I must say that was my behaviour a while ago. Mind you: I still love my M8, and these wonderful lenses. But there's only so much shafting you can take... Mark my word. The shafting, and where the "shaft, shafts" so to speak is very flexible, always has been. Give it 2 or 3 days, apply cream and after it heal it will all be forgotten and you will be defending the leica corporation again as if you existence depended on it. I spent 2 weeks browsing through 90% of all M8 threads here, and all this has happened before, and will probably happen again, it's a nice, refreshing and satisfying feeling having cleared ones heart.... after that nothing much will of changed, and never forget, didn't the austrians bring us "mozart balls/kugel" ... see how clever they are, hehehehe Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted December 17, 2008 Share #179 Posted December 17, 2008 Scene: A small camera factory in Hesse, Germany. Stefan Daniel enters Andreas Kaufmann's office. Stefan: Andreas, I need a word. Andreas: What is it Stefan, you look worried... Stefan: The peasants are revolting... <snip> Stefan/Maike: Yes! Andreas: What? Stefan/Maike: The new 2009 Price List! Very funny!!! :D :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAG Posted December 17, 2008 Share #180 Posted December 17, 2008 When I was quite youngish and poorish and still not really photografish, I had a brand new M6 in hand for the first time. I still remember the complete different feel it had, respective to some top cameras like some high end Nikon F. I instantly fell in love with that image in the viewfinder and these controls, and will never forget that moment. Just wow…! Never will forget the price too, which, I remember that also very clearly, was about 8 months of my revenue, at the time. Body only. Plus lens it was more than a year. Just wow again ! Gladly, today, an M8.2 is just a fraction of it now. Still, Leica gear has always been expensive. Except that, at the time, in that market, not a single pro photographer I knew (mostly in news, and a bit in studio portrait) was showing any despise or complaining about it. Today, each time I shoot with an M, I don't feel and shoot the same as with any other camera. And I like the result. What's the price to pay for that ? Any of us could decide of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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