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pat hattori

new upgrade prices

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Don't bother with M8.support - auto reply saying they are out of the office until 8 January!! Does day the emails will be forwarded though.

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I think you'd tend to agree that Honda, Toyota, BMW, Apple, Epson, and so many others are the sorts of companies that really understand what their customers want and deliver on that knowledge.

 

I can't comment on the three car makers as I never had one of their cars. I can say a bit about Epson and Apple, though:

 

I had a printer from Epson some years ago that I had a lot of problems with. I don't really remember the details, but it was the kind of stuff that wasn't obvious enough to return the printer and have it replaced, it just resulted in a lot of pain and cursing. The consequence for me was that I haven't used Epson printers since. I didn't go out on forums and told Epson how to run their company, though. (I've heard good things about Epson photo printers recently, so I'm actually considering to buy one of them, but in the meantime they had lost me as a customer for a couple of years.)

 

Epson also created the RD-1 and then abandoned it pretty quickly, leaving its buyers alone with an unsupported camera using a proprietary RAW format.

 

Apple - I used their computers exclusively during a large part of the 90s and I was very much looking forward to OS X at that time. When they eventually released it (that was 10.0), I was so appalled by its dismal beta quality that I sold the two Apples I had and switched to Linux. I didn't go out on forums and told Apple how to run their company, though. The fact that the last laptop I bought from them (one of the first "TiBooks") was a lot worse in terms of build quality and ruggedness than comparable machines from IBM didn't help much either.

 

Apple is also a good example for another reason. Things like "They're out of their mind", "They don't know what they're doing", "They're killing themselves", and so on I've heard so often about this company that I stopped counting. They're still there, though, and it seems they're doing well. If the amount of malice and criticism you receive on the Internet is inversely proportional to the success of the company, the future might look bright for Leica...

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Don't bother with M8.support - auto reply saying they are out of the office until 8 January!! Does day the emails will be forwarded though.

Mark, I just 'phoned M8 Upgrade Service +49 (0) 6442 208 165 and booked a slot in the 12th week of next year. Very courteous and efficient, the lady I spoke to (Frau/Frau-in Sonja Becker) confirmed that the new prices don't come into effect until Jan 1.

 

 

Bob.

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Boy this has been a long thread and tough to read as it keeps growing faster than I can read it.

 

Having said that, and having been blasted many times for saying some of the same things the blasters are saying now, I think the real reason for the strong reaction here is based on something a little deeper.

 

I sold my M8 last summer because I came to the conclusion that Leica is lost in the digital world. No disrespect meant to our German cousins but Germany has not been in the forefront of the digital age and is not known for their digital/electronics prowess. I own or have owned numerous German vehicles that I really love, Mercedes, Porsche and BMW and when it comes to mechanical items they are par excellence. But the electronics in every vehicle are way behind the Japanese or Americans.

 

The electronic problems in the camera and sadly quite a few mechanical ones too and Leica's inability to respond quickly convinced me that they are not likely to ever catch up. The result of the attempted catch-up effort has materialized in their lenses such that I have seen far too many QA problems showing in their lenses which might not have ever happened if they had stayed focused on lens manufacture. My concern was the survivability of Leica given their choice to build the S2 rather than a CL.

 

I think the rage reflected in this thread is because even the loyal Leica fans realize that such a move reflects further desperation by Leica and the underlying fear that their investment may be worth zero should Leica fail. Who would buy an M8 or M8.2 if Leica went under? How and where could you get the camera repaired? How much would that warranty you just paid for in an upgrade be worth then? With the camera's poor reputation for reliability and only one place to get repairs only collectors would be willing to buy them. I have noticed that our Leica dealers in Orange County CA are not stocking any inventory when they used to keep a few in stock. Sure they will special order one for you if you want to pay for it but they won't risk their own money.

 

The effects of this economy are not over by a long shot and it will be hitting Europe even harder than the US and as that happens (Europe tends to lag the US) things will get worse for Leica. They had a real market for the CL and possibly the R10, they chose to go for the S2. In two years since the M8 they should have had a new camera ready to go to market...they didn't! That spells incompetence in electronic engineering to me. I fear that those that have held on the their M8s are now stuck and should enjoy them while they can, hope they don't have a shutter or other electronic failure and be prepared to find another use for their M lenses. The other hit I predict is that without an M9 the lenses will suddenly start dropping in price to below pre M8 prices. Those paying $3K, $5,K and $9K for lenses will find no takers when they go to sell. Someone buying a Panasonic G1 or the Olympus equivalent for under $1K will not want to pay 3 to 9 times the price for the lenses but will look to VC and Zeiss for lenses.

 

John,

I find your post an excellent analysis, and I agree. Thank you!

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Mark, I just 'phoned M8 Upgrade Service +49 (0) 6442 208 165 and booked a slot in the 12th week of next year. Very courteous and efficient, the lady I spoke to (Frau/Frau-in Sonja Becker) confirmed that the new prices don't come into effect until Jan 1.

 

 

Bob.

 

Thanks, that should bring this thread to a quick end.

 

There's a solution for everyone, except the Perpetual F Moaner's ..... who will find an issue with it not shutting off quickly enough, perhaps.

 

LOL, LOL

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The other hit I predict is that without an M9 the lenses will suddenly start dropping in price to below pre M8 prices. Those paying $3K, $5,K and $9K for lenses will find no takers when they go to sell.

 

I fully agree: Leica itself started with rabates on lenses: I have just received the French Leica newsletter offering a 15% rebate on lew lenses (except for the ones presented at Photokina)!

 

Bebert

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Mark, I just 'phoned M8 Upgrade Service +49 (0) 6442 208 165 and booked a slot in the 12th week of next year. Very courteous and efficient, the lady I spoke to (Frau/Frau-in Sonja Becker) confirmed that the new prices don't come into effect until Jan 1.

 

 

Bob.

 

That's good news, I'll do the same if I don't hear back to my email.

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Mark, I just 'phoned M8 Upgrade Service +49 (0) 6442 208 165 and booked a slot in the 12th week of next year. Very courteous and efficient, the lady I spoke to (Frau/Frau-in Sonja Becker) confirmed that the new prices don't come into effect until Jan 1.

 

 

Bob.

Hmm, they aren't answering the phone right now. Maybe they are gone for lunch. I will try again a bit later.

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Mark, I just 'phoned M8 Upgrade Service +49 (0) 6442 208 165 and booked a slot in the 12th week of next year. Very courteous and efficient, the lady I spoke to (Frau/Frau-in Sonja Becker) confirmed that the new prices don't come into effect until Jan 1.

 

 

Bob.

Well I have 2 things to say.

The 12th week of next year is after Jan 1.

If the price is based on when you make the booking then Leica should of made that fact well known.

They are looking to get as many people to do the upgrades NOW so they can be done with it.

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Well I have 2 things to say.

The 12th week of next year is after Jan 1.

If the price is based on when you make the booking then Leica should of made that fact well known.

They are looking to get as many people to do the upgrades NOW so they can be done with it.

Yes, I was told since I made the booking before 1 Jan the old prices applied. I think their big mistake was that fact wasn't mentioned on the upgrade page of their web site.

 

Bob.

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Someone mentioned Epson and the RD-1 as somehow being comparable to the Leica situation. I don't see it that way for several reasons.

1. Epson decided to quit selling the RD-1 and made that known

2. Epson is still in business so that is different than if they went out of business

3. RD-1 repairs were being handled by a third party in Ohio so there was a place to go for repairs and warranty claims

4. Yet another company had (maybe still does) complete inventory of all parts so third party camera repair companies can/could buy parts to repair the camera.

 

Currently Leica is the only place to get parts or repairs so if they failed there would be no way to get the parts to fix the camera and no third party with the knowledge.

 

Finally comparing Apple to Leica really makes no sense. Whatever you may think of Apple (I personally like them though I am not always happy with everything they do) they know how to package and market. Additionally, their products perform very well overall. The iPod is the gold standard in music players, the iPhone in just a couple of years has become the gold standard in the smartphone arena knocking out such entrenched players as Motorola, Nokia and even RIM. Their noteboooks command a price premium because they are well built, perform well and are beautifully designed. Others try and copy them. Leica is the leader in the RF market only because they are the only one in it. If they had been wildly successful other would have followed. It happens in every business.

 

I think the analysis of wanting to push toward M8.2 sales is accurate but their problem is that it is too little for too much and hasn't shown their ability to actually stay current much less lead the market in technology. The S2 fails to do that for them because any company can build anything if they can charge enough money for it. The challenge is to build a high quality product that is innovative and that you can sell competitively and still make a decent profit. Look at the backlash Nikon is getting over the pricing of the D3x. Had they priced it modestly above the D3, that backlash wouldn't have occurred. But it is being compared to the Sony for a fraction of the price and that is why it is meeting such resistance. Mega-pixels alone isn't sufficient reason in today's market to command a premium price. A new smaller, lighter Leica with electronic rangefinder, focus assist including live view and a better high ISO sensor priced in the $4k range and they probably couldn't make them fast enough.

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Crazy 50%

yeah but...

 

anybody who can remember that RF is killed in 1970. hence it means small group users of "those silly crap cameras" nowadays.

 

Why compare collectionable snob stuffs to millions plastic fabric made toys?

 

While some dont mind any RF capabilities, they should rush to buy cheapest per perfomance/watt no matter what type, let be P&S, microDSLR, dslr etc.

 

of course we get same pics with some exceptions. But it is not the point otherwise Leica wouldn't exist, doesn't it? It applies holga, Linhof, pinhole, Alpha at possible price levels.

 

Now I want Lamborghini Gallardo for Bmw M3 price

Give me, Cmon, Im a customer! I have power..................... but no money..................

 

/me who happen to like rear-wheel driven cars and rangefinders! It doesnt mean that I dont like 4x4 or nikon D3. Just different stuffs.

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Lots of truth in your statement. But what you are defending is the "old" - not the "new" Leica.

And I'm afraid analog sales aren't going to make their sales numbers.

 

Please dont tell me this

 

I cannot believe my ears when I heard that films sales has upped this year. But films are so cheap nowadays that I dont see no reason for not using my M3.

 

There are so many arguments for using one or other medium but it is already OT here.

 

I'm used to think about Leica more as lens manufacturer. Before M8 introduction, Leica didnt need to do work much but only following the core of Standard and M3 for quite long time almost 100 years with only 2 slightly different designs (forget M5, CL).

 

Now S2, R10 release in financial crisis. Kaufman may have dig deep in his pockets if he is an enthusiast enough as me to survive the lack of sales for a timeperiod. Of course I guess only.

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Yes and no. The frameline upgrade is almost obligatory, unless you are willing to crop

20% or more off your image.

 

Ask your Leica why they do continue sell new M8 with that "crap framelines".

 

I have flagged for one model sale. Only M8.2, skip M8. Maybe Leica recognized that there are some people who choose M8 instead M8.2 because this foolstupid camera has Smile mode. Seriously, there might be larger costs of choice of material. I dont have facts in hand to motivate the big difference of prices of M8 and M8.2 if we assume that practical differences are minimal.

 

I can think at other way. Better too loose composition than too tight. 10mpx sensor is so good that you dont lose much info with even 20% crop.

 

I dont afford print every A2 with colors so we wouldnt notice something in A4 or even an A3 print

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John, really man.

 

It's one thing to think the upgrades are over-priced, but it's a helluva jump to then conclude that Leica is going under and that a perfectly good M8 would then be literally worthless!

 

Talk about fostering fear, uncertainty and doubt! We all know you didn't like your M8 for whatever reasons, but this "I told you so" stuff from you is a bit much, especially since you don't have an M8 to upgrade anyway! There are all kinds of reasons Leica might raise the price for the upgrades, including not wanting to actually do any...

 

Heck, Canon and Nikon don't do "upgrades" at any price, though of course you can always buy another body...

 

Nikon offers a significant buffer upgrade to the D3 and what is not mentioned is a complete CLA included for the $500 U.S.

 

http://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nikoneurope_en.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=25465&p

 

And I have to agree with Barjohn because if Leica falls into a situation that makes the M8 even harder if not nearly impossible to get proper support and service on then it truly is worthless, at least to me, a working photographer.

 

Hopefully Leica will weather the gnarly storm that is about to hit them and we will see a company who has been asleep at the wheel finally wake up.

 

But John, don't worry about the S2, it will never make it in this day and age, Leica was truly dreaming and I bet they are realizing that now tenfold...

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The Bottom line is that I remain extremely disappointed with these new prices for the upgrades. The message I am getting from Leica is that I really don't matter as a loyal customer. It makes no difference to them. Either pay or get out. I am extremely disappointed and feel a sense of betrayal. My ethusiasm for Leica is quickly diminishing.

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