new upgrade prices

[Ecaton]

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As my Framelines Anatomy thread showed, the frames are nothing more than a pair of tiny slivers of metal and, if that is the only job being done, only the top has to come off the camera. An hour's work, maximum. How does Leica justify charging €1000 for that?

 

Receiving, registering, work planning, and after the upgrade work, releasing, picking and shipping incl paper processing alone ad to about 2 man hours of work in aggregate.

I don't have the latest fully loaded average cost per manhour for German labour, but they might be in the Euro 50-70 range.

Now, ad to that disassmebling the Camera, doing the upgrades with some material costs, reassembling everything, followed by QC work. The whole upgrade concept is very labour intense, at German costs, without adding a corresponding value to the product. And lastly, costs for extended warranty need to be considered as well.

Unfortunately, cost accountants at Leica do not seem to be any better than Solms' marketing strategists and the initial cost estimates used to price the upgrades flawed from the beginning.

[marknorton]

Demand for upgrades exceed(ed) the demand for the M8.2. The steep price increases will make the M8.2 more attractive among Leicaholics, relatively speaking. And demand will be rebalanced to the liking of Solms. It is that simple.

 

That makes the incorrect assumption that anyone who feels the upgrades are too expensive will take whatever depreciation hit is required and instead go for a new M8.2. There's a second option which many here are taking which is to do nothing, so Leica loses out and generates considerable ill-feeling in the process.

 

I had got my head around paying for the upgrade but there's no way I would buy an M8.2 at this stage in the life of the sensor and processing electronics. It's old iron. As I have said before, if Leica want to sell more M8.2s, they should have made a more attractive, compelling offering.

 

Leica marketing is all over the place at the moment, what with rebates, discounts, vouchers, free cases, price increases and the rest. It's a shambles and Leica will richly deserve the dire year-end numbers (31/03/2009) they will surely end up with.

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[Ecaton]

I'd call that simplistic, if I may.

Proportions may get re-balanced, but the size of the pie will shrink.

As I wrote earlier, I was going to send a sizeable chunk of money in Solms' direction for M8 upgrade, second M8.2 body and new lens. Not anymore.

Even Leicaholics have a brain;)

But perhaps it's just me - or a few of us - feeling this way:confused:

 

Yes, it is simplistic, but an attempt to read of what might have driven Solms to an unwise move. I was one of the stronger critiques of the upgrade programms from the very beginning, and exactly for the reason you state. I.e being a Leicaholic with some brain.

[johnbuckley]

This thread is growing faster than I can read it, but I simply have to react to the following thought offered several times by different posters:

 

 

 

I simply can't understand how anyone in his or her right mind could react this way! I bought a camera for EUR 4.200 that never worked as it should have. Now Leica want to keep me from doing an upgrade by charging EUR 2.000 after a 50% price increase. But they hope I will buy the same camera again, only this time working, for EUR 5.000? The reasoning going like "If we piss him off hard enough he is sure to give us even more money?" Or like "If EUR 6.200 are too much for him he will be glad to spend EUR 9.200 instead?"

 

How grotesquely out of reality can you get???

 

In fact, I am so pissed off I will rather go back to using my M3 and M6 and scanning film than buy another digital experimental device from that bunch of arrogant snobs. And the very second someone else offers a digital body that accepts my Leica glass I'll go there and buy one - and never look back. Trust me, Mr. Daniel and Mr. Kaufmann!

 

Manfred - I don't know that it is the case that Leica raised upgrade prices to get people to buy the M8.2; it was, as stated, my suspicion. In some ways, I am hoping there was actually a meeting in which the price increase was argued about, rather than a decision made on the run without thought. (Aren't German engineering exemplars such as Leica supposed to be methodical, or is that just a stereotype?)

 

But the point now is: Hello, Leica. You have not made such a mistake since the initial M8 release with the IR problem. Stephen Lee, to his credit, stepped up and offered UV/IR filters.

 

As a Leica loyalist who has worked for 25+ years in public relations, including sixteen years running corporate communications for large companies, here is some free advice: either 1) rescind the price increase, 2) explain the price increase, or better, explain why this sudden price increase came about, define your long-term strategy for upgrades better -- really, the communication on the upgrade program has been so wildly inconsistent from the beginning, one does not really know what Leica's ultimate strategy for it is -- and then, as a gesture of good customer relations, undo what seems to all to be a pretty ridiculously high upgrade price. (If it is cost more to upgrade than one pays for a first rate Nikon or Canon, just call the whole damn program off, and focus your energies on getting the M9 out the door.)

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Manfred it looks like you will be buying the Pana G1 and the m adapter The adapter has arrived - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

 

Or maybe wait a couple of months for a compact micro 4/3 from Olympus, or the mirror-free one in Samsung's pipeline, flat enough to take M-lenses but with 1.6 versus the 2.0 crop of all 4/3?

At the same time Chinese rings will be marketed to us directly and that will cost a fraction of the 149,- euro . On the phone someone in Memmingen slipped the word "our supplier" the other day, while before their in-house production justified the premium price.

 

These are plans many have for their M-lenses longer than 50mm anyway.

[Ecaton]

That makes the incorrect assumption that anyone who feels the upgrades are too expensive will take whatever depreciation hit is required and instead go for a new M8.2. There's a second option which many here are taking which is to do nothing, so Leica loses out and generates considerable ill-feeling in the process.I had got my head around paying for the upgrade but there's no way I would buy an M8.2 at this stage in the life of the sensor and processing electronics. It's old iron.As I have said before, if Leica want to sell more M8.2s, they should have made a more attractive, compelling offering. Leica marketing is all over the place at the moment, what with rebates, discounts, vouchers, free cases, price increases and the rest. It's a shambles and Leica will richly deserve the dire year-end numbers (31/03/2009) they end up with.

 

The do nothing was what I opted for. It so happened that my "old" M8 had to be sent to NJ about two weeks ago because of shutter problems, about 2 months before expiry of warranty coverage. I asked Leica NJ whether they could offer me a reduced price on the shutter upgrade, since replacing the old shutter would cost them anyway. My expectation was that a 30%-50% price reduction on the upgrade could make sense to both of us. But Leica was not interested an is now replacing the old shutter at their expense.

As posted earlier in this thread, to benefit from "extended" warranty protection, I meanwhile bought a new M8 from RW in the UK at a price of USD 2885. In comparison, the upgrade prices look bizarre.

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Manfred it looks like you will be buying the Pana G1 and the m adapter The adapter has arrived - The GetDPI Workshop Forums

So very true! The money saved by not upgrading and purchasing new lenses would buy me 20 Lumix G1s .

 

Bob.

[Ecar]

So very true! The money saved by not upgrading and purchasing new lenses would buy me 20 Lumix G1s .

 

Bob.

 

Or a perfectly functional M6 + used Nocti... and you could still afford a Pana G1!

[marknorton]

I bought one (Pana G1) last weekend for £395 and am thrilled with it. I've now confirmed the 21/2.8, 24/2.8 and the 35/1.4 will fit in the lens throat and am looking forward to buying lens adapters from John Milich (he of the WATE filter adapter "fame").

 

At that price, I could buy 10 of the things instead of upgrading 2 M8s. Which planet do Leica think they are on?

[Ecar]

I bought one (Pana G1) last weekend for £395 and am thrilled with it. I've now confirmed the 21/2.8, 24/2.8 and the 35/1.4 will fit in the lens throat and am looking forward to buying lens adapters from John Milich (he of the WATE filter adapter "fame").

 

At that price, I could buy 10 of the things instead of upgrading 2 M8s. Which planet do Leica think they are on?

 

Although I don't agree with all the points he's making, I suggest Leica management read Sean Reid's piece on "Photography In A Time Of Recession". It's good food for thought.

Sure, they'd have to pay a small subscription fee, but that might well be cheaper than the cost of a few minute's time (say, the duration of a coffee break?) of their highly-competent Marketing staff. And then, the Accounting Dept could always factor that in the next price increase;)

[thrid]

Demand for upgrades exceed(ed) the demand for the M8.2. The steep price increases will make the M8.2 more attractive among Leicaholics, relatively speaking. And demand will be rebalanced to the liking of Solms. It is that simple.

 

If that is the case then that may imply that the M8.2 is not attracting new customers, as hoped and I'm guessing this is because they have priced it out of the market.

 

I mostly shoot analog (6x M bodies, 3xR etc). Probably about 20-40 rolls a month, but I also have the need for a digital body.

 

I waited until Photokina to see what Leica would produce, before I made a purchase. There was no D-CL and while the M8.2 fixed my biggest complaint about the camera (the framelines), they priced it beyond all that is reasonable. So, my money went to Nikon for a D700. Believe me, as nice a camera as the D700 is, I would have much rather given that money to Leica. I really prefer shooting with an RF and Leica is in my blood.

 

Hopefully Leica will pull their head out of their rear end in 2009 and get their product line and pricing in line with the real world. But these recent actions do not inspire confidence.

[tomasis7]

Yeah!

And all those bunch of idiots who have bought the first M8 two years ago, make beta testing after having paid hard money, cry about the issues. Now they can just f....off ?

That's right ?

 

What did you expect from digital things. Even my computer annoys me. I lose files sometimes. Digital is just a bunch of trolls

 

Seriously speaking, I wouldn't recommend M8 for an amateur who is prepared to throw money in the sea if he HAD any expectations.

 

It is not exactly Leica's fault that some users are throwing out their hair. It is their problem that they feel that they are obliged to upgrade.

 

It is what capitalism works. Consumerism and "the real needs".

 

I still love Leica just because they sell M7, MP and lenses. Maybe it is only me is left who is stubborn defendant of Leica, lol

[Philippe D.]

It is not exactly Leica's fault that some users are throwing out their hair. It is their problem that they feel that they are obliged to upgrade.

That's right.

 

And now i have to thanks Leica to help me saving money.

Although i didn't wanted to change the display, even by old prices, having a Schott Saphirglas @ 1150 EUR on my camera didn't make me jump for joy.

So i decided to play little, after being sure i never will have any upgrade on my M8's at that cost, and ordered some GGS Universal Display Protection Cover Glass Screen Protector for 2.5" @ 10 EUR the piece.

 

I guess, a couple of them will last at least as long as the camera itself will stand.

Cheers.

[Ecar]

... Consumerism and "the real needs".

 

I still love Leica just because they sell M7, MP and lenses. Maybe it is only me is left who is stubborn defendant of Leica, lol

 

Lots of truth in your statement. But what you are defending is the "old" - not the "new" Leica.

And I'm afraid analog sales aren't going to make their sales numbers.

[gravastar]

Lots of truth in your statement. But what you are defending is the "old" - not the "new" Leica.

And I'm afraid analog sales aren't going to make their sales numbers.

And the "old Leica" is very well served by eBay which doesn't benefit the company at all.

 

Bob.

[JHAG]

That's right.

 

And now i have to thanks Leica to help me saving money.

Although i didn't wanted to change the display, even by old prices, having a Schott Saphirglas @ 1150 EUR on my camera didn't make me jump for joy.

So i decided to play little, after being sure i never will have any upgrade on my M8's at that cost, and ordered some GGS Universal Display Protection Cover Glass Screen Protector for 2.5" @ 10 EUR the piece.

 

I guess, a couple of them will last at least as long as the camera itself will stand.

Cheers.

 

Not so sure. I used several protections on several screen, all peeled off after a while, at the worst moment, of course, while away and no easy way to replace it.

Instead, Zagg Shields is on my M8 screen from day one and never peeled off.

10 $.

[Philippe D.]

Not so sure. I used several protections on several screen, all peeled off after a while

Just read (on the link) what it is exactly.

It's made out of glass and not applied like those plastic foils.

[Guest Luis D]

As a longtime lurker this thread is giving me the best laugh! All the defenders and supporters are suddenly bashing Leica, but of course because they do it, it's ok And before, when the US prices went up--lots more than the factor of dollar:Euro, all the Europeens were defending Leica, but now when the shoe is on the other foot, oh the outrage!

[jaapv]

And before, when the US prices went up--lots more than the factor of dollar:Euro

 

 

Glad to give you a laugh , but I fear you overrate your currency - that is factually incorrect.

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[UliWer]

I bought one (Pana G1) last weekend for £395 and am thrilled with it. I've now confirmed the 21/2.8, 24/2.8 and the 35/1.4 will fit in the lens throat and am looking forward to buying lens adapters from John Milich (he of the WATE filter adapter "fame").

 

At that price, I could buy 10 of the things instead of upgrading 2 M8s. Which planet do Leica think they are on?

 

With the old price of the upgrade you could have bought 7.5 new G1. Did the old price make you think twice about buying one? Last weekend when you bought it, the new upgrade prices weren't published.