Compatability 50mm Summicron DR (again) and M6

[rmrainey]

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I have followed all threads I could, but don't find any carried far enough to address my M6 ("classic") and Summicron 50mm DR (20"): I can mount and use normally just fine, and mount eyes correctly, etc., however simple, probably stupid question is, with eyes, along with parallax correction, shouldn't I also have RF use? RF is not functional...seems to be (kind of) working at normal distance, not closer range.

 

Wrong eyes, or just doesn't work with M6, or do I bite bullet and physically measure distance when I want closer range if it is that important to me?

 

Thanks

[doubice]

Welcome to the Leica forum!

 

Your DR Summicron should be fully compatible with the Classic M6, including full RF coupling from 1m to infinity, and with the ‘goggles’ mounted, in the close range below 1m.

 

When the goggles are not attached to the lens, focusing mount will not engage in the close-up range. Once you slide the goggles onto the lens, you will have to pull the focusing mount out (away from the camera) and turn it past the detent into the close-up range. The goggles contain a set of prisms, which correct the viewfinder for close focusing.

 

The lens will than focus below 1 meter, with full focus coupling and parallax compensation. Are you saying that you are unable to focus in the close-up range with the goggles in place?

 

A little more information will be needed to provide you with full diagnostics…..

 

Best,

 

Jan

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[rmrainey]

Correct. I set lens to focus on infinity and then mount on body. Then focus lens to minimum distance, pull out and set tab to DR, and lens will not change focus any further at this point. Then slip goggles on (works smoothly) and lens appears to have full range of close up focus, however RF does not function.....I can see a very slight ghost, however it is at outside closeup range and nothing will align in either case. I may be rather dense, as I am a little out of practice....

 

The goggles say Leitz Wetzlar on front, Made in Germany on back.

 

Attempting to describe what I do see through RF when goggles mounted, split image moves horizontally but is always offset vertically, and is generally visible in that manner only at normal distances regardless, not closer range., etc.

 

Thank you again.

[Guest zwicko]

Did you buy the lens and the googles seperately?

 

I heard there are two versions of the googles for DR-Summicrons.

Maybe that is part of the problem.

 

If it´s not, please see this link to Gandy´s Cameraquest where it is

stated that

"Leica has confirmed that the DR will not mount on all M6,

due to internal changes of the film chamber.

(...) the close-up attachment will not line up properly to these camera's

viewfinders in the close focusing range."

 

(link: Leica M 50/2 Dual Range Summicron)

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers, Zwicko

[Guest zwicko]

By the way: Welcome to the forum!

 

Z.

[rmrainey]

Thank you all. I will settle for the normal range use I guess. I thought I might use the close up function very occasionally, but that is not the reason I have the lens—I bought it (with goggles just because they came with) and the M6 together but at a reasonable enough cost I feel OK that the close range will not work with this M6.

 

I had an M3 with a collapsible 50 Summicron back in the 70s and both have been sorely missed...I have never quite gotten over them going away, so I will be glad to use this M6 with both the 50 and 35 Summicron-M that came with it. I am hoping to add a 21 sometime, but will have to wait until the right one comes along, etc.

 

Thank you again.

[LeonardT]

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I don't think it is a M6 issue. You might try the lens and goggles on an older M2, 3, 4 at a local camera store that has a used one. If it still doesn't work you might have a 50 DR that has had it's focusing helical modified for use on an M8. In that case it can never be used in the close range again. If you show us a photo of the rear of the lens from a couple of angles we might be able to tell.

 

Len

[doubice]

"split image moves horizontally but is always offset vertically"

 

There-in lies your answer. I believe the prisms inside the optical attachement are missaligned, resulting in an image which does not co-incide along the vertical axis. Are there any signs of the optical unit having been dropped?

 

As to non-compatibility issues of the M6 and the DR Summicron - absolutely no problems when used on an M6 Classic or, any pre non-TTL body. The TTL bodies introduced three issues - a taller housing (a lug had to be removed from the DR's optical attachment so that it could be fitted to the body). There also were possible clearance problems due to an additional flash TTL sensor on the lower right side of the shutter crate. A newly introduced, larger light baffle around the circumferance of the inner lens mount also can also sometimes come into contact with the focusing mount of the DR lens.

 

To sum up though, your problem lies with the optical unit (goggles). To confirm this, try the outfit with any other non-TTL M body.

 

Best,

 

Jan

[LeonardT]

"split image moves horizontally but is always offset vertically"

 

There-in lies your answer. I believe the prisms inside the optical attachement are missaligned, resulting in an image which does not co-incide along the vertical axis. Are there any signs of the optical unit having been dropped?

 

To sum up though, your problem lies with the optical unit (goggles). To confirm this, try the outfit with any other non-TTL M body.

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

I think you nailed it, Jan. That's got to be it.

 

Len

[budrichard]

Have DR Summicron with original matching optical unit. Mounts fine on my M6 Classic and one of my M7's. Mounts on the other M7 I have but focusing ring will not move.-Dick

[Guest Posto 6]

Also have late (239....) DR with googles, which works perfectly on MP and M6J. Agree with Jan, however, on your problem.

 

Good luck, and enjoy using this wonderful lens

[rmrainey]

Thank you everyone and indeed Jan was correct.

 

It took me a while but I found a DR w/goggles locally that I could compare to, and sure enough those goggles worked fine with my DR on my M6.

 

On closer inspection of my goggles, I realized it was only because I have been away from Leica for so long and had gotten lazy, that I didn't see two tiny notches in the back, brass ring which is the back of the round, right side (from the back of the camera when mounted) prism. Duh...it is adjustable...not easily so, as I imagine it was not supposed to easily loosen and go out of alignment, but there you have it.

 

The front chrome cover of the right goggle screws completely off...it has a clear lens cover in it only, and the inside piece which inserts from the back of the goggle plate is the prism, mounted in the brass screw ring. Trick was to set up at a known (close range) distance, and rotate the prism while keeping it pushed up against the back of the goggle plate until the alignment was correct, then screw the chrome cap back over it and tighten it down without allowing the prism to move, which is the not so easy part. I think I may try to finish the job by a touch of wax in the slots so it doesn't get moved again, and also mark it with something in case it does.

 

What fun, you may say, but indeed it was when I realized the solution was so simple. I am now looking forward to using it at the close range also.

[andybarton]

I have a "new" 50 DR that works perfectly off the camera (focusing to infinity fine), but binds on my really new MP. It works OK on my M2 and M7.

 

I am wondering whether this might be connected to the viewfinder problem that I have (and for which the camera will be returned to Solms again tomorrow)

[kepstein]

Just found this thread, and I wanted to add my problem.  This lens will mount on my M6 TTL, and I can move the focus to the near focus setting.  When I mount the goggle, I can't move the focus.  If I remove the google, and manually push in the spring loaded ball, I can move the focus.

 

Thanks for any assistance,

Ken

[davidmknoble]

I also just found this thread. I have an M6 (non-til) and the second version of the ‘cron DR (with meters and feet). My goggles work fine as I used this lens on and M3 and M2R. What I found is that the DR works great on the M6 with the goggles (pull lens out, move to the near focus side, mount goggles, focus). However, mine will not focus all the way to infinity - close, but not all the way. The focus helicooid sticks out for about 1/2 the circumference, presumably for light baffling, and at infinity, it pushes up against the light meter that protrudes.

 

Anyone have M6 serial numbers they would be willing to share where their DR focuses to Infinity with no trouble?

 

Thanks!

[a.noctilux]

I also just found this thread. I have an M6 (non-til) and the second version of the ‘cron DR (with meters and feet). My goggles work fine as I used this lens on and M3 and M2R. What I found is that the DR works great on the M6 with the goggles (pull lens out, move to the near focus side, mount goggles, focus). However, mine will not focus all the way to infinity - close, but not all the way. The focus helicooid sticks out for about 1/2 the circumference, presumably for light baffling, and at infinity, it pushes up against the light meter that protrudes.

 

Anyone have M6 serial numbers they would be willing to share where their DR focuses to Infinity with no trouble?

 

Thanks!

 

As background and decades of happy DR user .

 

I use Cron DR for a while until now with M10.

Some need a very small grinding to focus to infinity, with M10 and some don't need.

This thread : https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269876-m10-can-be-used-with-somni-50mm-dr-full-range/

 

Back to topic...

For M6 use, long time ago, I had the problem as your DR + M6.

My solution was to shave a bit the plastic "hood" of the meter cell in M6.

Not more than 1mm plastic shave was fine to focus the DR to infinity.

 

Arnaud

[MCF74]

On 1/25/2009 at 8:04 AM, rmrainey said:

Thank you everyone and indeed Jan was correct.

 

It took me a while but I found a DR w/goggles locally that I could compare to, and sure enough those goggles worked fine with my DR on my M6.

 

On closer inspection of my goggles, I realized it was only because I have been away from Leica for so long and had gotten lazy, that I didn't see two tiny notches in the back, brass ring which is the back of the round, right side (from the back of the camera when mounted) prism. Duh...it is adjustable...not easily so, as I imagine it was not supposed to easily loosen and go out of alignment, but there you have it.

 

The front chrome cover of the right goggle screws completely off...it has a clear lens cover in it only, and the inside piece which inserts from the back of the goggle plate is the prism, mounted in the brass screw ring. Trick was to set up at a known (close range) distance, and rotate the prism while keeping it pushed up against the back of the goggle plate until the alignment was correct, then screw the chrome cap back over it and tighten it down without allowing the prism to move, which is the not so easy part. I think I may try to finish the job by a touch of wax in the slots so it doesn't get moved again, and also mark it with something in case it does.

 

What fun, you may say, but indeed it was when I realized the solution was so simple. I am now looking forward to using it at the close range also.

Phew, it's been over 11 years but I am soooo glad I found this thread. I got the 50mm DR today, in gorgeous condition (my second 50mm DR, first was sold on a few years ago). Upon putting the goggles on, the focus was way out, vertically and horizontally. This is the only evidence I found online of the (relatively easy) fix!

To summarise what was described above in steps, with a bit more intent:

1. Set your camera and lens on a tripod and point it at something within range of the close focus options on the lens barrel. I draw a few crosshairs on tape and stuck it to the wall. I then set my tripod up and measured 0.6m from close to the back of my M body to the wall, and set 0.6m on the close focus lens distance scale. (Unfortunately, on most pre-M5 bodies, there's no film plane indicator so I had to use an educated guess of a couple of millimetres in from the back of the top plate). I have an MP from 2003, I guess they'll really didn't want to tarnish it with a film place indicator!

2. Unscrew the silver cylindrical cover from the front of the goggles, all the way off. It'll reveal the round lens piece sitting in a black housing (careful, it could fall out but it's pretty secure.) Crucially, the back of the round lens piece has a wider flange which sits snuggly into the hole from behind. The back of the lens piece has two opposing notches. These are important for aligning the lens correctly. 

3. With the silver hood removed, you can rotate the lens around until the images in your rangefinder patch align correctly. If you're lucky, they'll align both horizontally and vertically. Mine aligned horizontally, but was off vertically, so much so that it was a little too off for my liking. 

4. This is the tricky part. Getting the vertical alignment correct. For me, it was a case of a little wiggle here and there, and starting to screw the silver hood back on. By doing so, it tightens the lens piece into position. By trial and error, the tightening shifts the vertical alignment into the correct position, but you really need to keep the horizontal alignment in the correct position too. Any minor shift will upset the focus. 

5. The more successful process was, once the hood was about half way on, and I'd double checked the rangefinder focus wasn't out, I removed the goggles very carefully and kept pressure on the black lens piece from the back. 

6. At this point, I noted (mentally) where the notches where aligned on the back of the lens piece. One was slightly (ever so slightly) past 9 o'clock; the opposite notch ever so slightly past 3 o'clock. Keeping these in their position with a bit of pressure, I finished screwing the hood on. 

7. I reattached the goggles to check the focus, it was out slightly, so, removing the goggles and loosening the hood, I used my thumb and finger to turn the notches at touch back to their positions mentioned in point 6 above (they'd moved slightly). Then retightened the hood on the front.

8. I rechecked the focus, all was good. I checked at a few other distances too, all good. 

9. Now that I know the correct position is ever so slightly past 9 and 3 o'clock with the notches, any future adjustment shouldn't take so long. It took me about 20 mins in total for the first time. I'd like to think Leica made all those lens pieces to align at 9 and 3 o'clock, to save people too much bother in the future! Maybe a good starting point for you.

So, thanks to @rmrainey for the fix and reducing my anxiety levels very quickly.