mojobebop Posted November 27, 2008 Share #1 Posted November 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm thinking of purchasing a used m4. Most of what I've read on forums in general is about m4-p's. I'm wondering what that is, given that quality wise the m4 is supposed to be superior. Is it because the better m4's are more expensive than their counterparts? Or possibly because the p's need less cla's? I'm aware also of the extra 28mm rf lines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 27, 2008 Posted November 27, 2008 Hi mojobebop, Take a look here leica m4 vs. m4-p. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lars_bergquist Posted November 27, 2008 Share #2 Posted November 27, 2008 There are no differences of quality between the two. If the M4-P is to be preferred on that count, it is because it is the younger camera. But that is a very general verdict, and in reality, all depends on the state of the individual camera. The two cameras are mechanically nearly identical, and none is of course natively more in need of CLAs than the other. All that depends on the shape of your own specimen (when did it last go to a camera spa?) The technical differences could be more decisive, depending on the weight you yourself give to them: — The M4 has a self-timer, the M4-P has not. — The M4-P has a hot shoe, the M4 not. — The M4-P has a motor coupling, the M4 doesn't. — The M4-P has a (barely visible) 28mm frame in the finder, which the M4 is lacking. — The M4-P has markings for 75mm inside the 50mm frame; but if you do not use the 75mm length, then it is of course just irritating clutter. Judge for yourself. Both cameras are of course mechanicaly superb, with a 'feel' that is not quite there in later cameras. The old man from the Age of the M3 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leitz_not_leica Posted November 27, 2008 Share #3 Posted November 27, 2008 The M4-P has steel gears for more durability (because of said motor), the M4 has brass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 27, 2008 Share #4 Posted November 27, 2008 Beyond those points: Virtually all M4-Ps are Canadian-built (Maybe a hundred were assembled (or at least marked) in Solms during the transition to the M6). Almost all M4s were built in Wetzlar (about 5% were built in Canada). 80% of M4s are silver chrome - the relatively few black ones are black paint (with a tiny fraction in black chrome at the end of the run). 80% of M4-Ps are black chrome, with about 20% silver chrome ones built. As mentioned - M4s had brass gears in the advance mechanism, whereas the M4-P had steel gears to stand up to motor forces. The brass gears are just a tad smoother in operation IMHO (but also in many others opinion). Whether it really made a difference or not, that slight extra smoothness, plus the fact that M4s were built in the Wetzlar regime rather than the Canadian/Solms regime, plus the fact that the M4 still had the ornate script engraving - made the M4s more desirable among a certain group of Leica fans. Thus they tended to be more expensive used - $1,400 vs $1,000 for an M4-P around, say, 1999. Therefore (I speculate) the younger starters who have lots of questions to ask the internet tend to get M4-Ps, whereas M4 users (on the whole - not all!) may just be of a generation that learned how to use their cameras around 1970 and don't spend a lot of time on the Web mentioning them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_newell Posted November 29, 2008 Share #5 Posted November 29, 2008 I have owned them all...several copies of some...they are all great. Buy one in good shape at a price you feel good about and the USE it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted November 29, 2008 Share #6 Posted November 29, 2008 My own M4-P (a 1983 Jubilee model) is as smooth as they come. I think steel gears can be made as smooth as brass gears nowadays. Anyone old enough to remember when car engines had to be 'run in' carefully during the first two thousand kilometers or so, scrupulously avoiding high revs? That was long ago. By the way, the first M with a real motor coupling was of course the M4-2, not the M4-P, which differs only in the number of frames in the finder (six instead of four). The old man from the Age of the M3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted November 29, 2008 Share #7 Posted November 29, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's face it, a M4-P is a M4 with a P. P Stands Pro. Many people will say Steel versus Brass, and Canada Versus Germany. Well, if you ask me, Steel is better then Brass, and Canada is actually a great country. So it's a M4 with a P. How beautiful is that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DuquesneG Posted November 29, 2008 Share #8 Posted November 29, 2008 My suggestion is to call Don Goldberg or Sherry Krauter or some other self-employed Leica repair tech, and ask them what if any differences in quality there are between the M4 and M4-P. People who own one or the other are bound to give their own choice a glowing report. The repair techs will tell it like they see it from hundreds if not thousands of samples they've stripped down to the bone and rebuilt. I can tell you what they told me: the M4-P is a slightly-improved version of the M4-2, and of better quality than the M6 and M6TTL which went downhill due to cost cutting. But the M4 is a different bird altogether, having the same high degree of finesse and workmanship and fine-tunability of the M3 and M2. Of course an M4 which has been tinkered with by some untrained repair tech is probably going to be less reliable and precision than an M4-P that has received Leica-trained service. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maddoc2003jp Posted November 30, 2008 Share #9 Posted November 30, 2008 I have owned and used both, M4 (two of them) and M4-P (two of them) amongst other Leica M bodies. The second M4-P that I use now has been serviced by Leica (Japan) and is smoother to operate than any other M Leica I have used before (including an MP). The M4 is nice and has some collector value but the M4-P is more reliable, IMHO. Older M4 can have prism separation (like M2/3 because of the balsam used to glue the prism) and the second shutter curtain can rip off the drum when the lubricants have dried out (weak point of the M4 according to my camera tech). The only advantage of the M4 over the M4-P in daily use was the VF which is less prone to flare. Cheers, Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stucel Posted December 2, 2008 Share #10 Posted December 2, 2008 Hallo, can anybody help me with my problem? I can try to use my Elmarit R 28/2.8(1982) with adpter R-M mount on body M4-2, but everywhere is specify using it with M5,M6,M7,M8 and not for M4 body. Is some risk here to try it? Hi , Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted December 3, 2008 Share #11 Posted December 3, 2008 Hallo, can anybody help me with my problem? I can try to use my Elmarit R 28/2.8(1982) with adpter R-M mount on body M4-2, but everywhere is specify using it with M5,M6,M7,M8 and not for M4 body. Is some risk here to try it? Hi , Paul I suggest you start a new thread with your question, and put it in the Film section. Those with the answer may not see it here. Doug Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maurometallo Posted August 25, 2010 Share #12 Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) I never had an M4, therefore I'm poor judge in the matter of how it "feels" in the hands... However, I'm proud owner of an M4-P since 1985, and I have NEVER had problems. The only thing that ever happened to her was that the red dot got detached and lost in 1999. She went to Solms in 2002 for a CLA and came back as new with a replacement one saying " Leica" instead of "Leitz"... Long live film! Edited August 25, 2010 by maurometallo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BennehBoy Posted August 25, 2010 Share #13 Posted August 25, 2010 I just picked up an M4-P & Anniversary 50 Cron very cheaply - this was after selling an M6 about a year ago and wishing I hadn't. The M4-P works well for me in that I predominantly shoot during the day so don't really need a meter (I use a sekonic if I need to). I just need to get a 35mm lens now, 50 isn't quite wide enough for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted August 25, 2010 Share #14 Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) Hi There is a build quality difference. The M4 was built for hand assembly, the M4-P is a lego brick camera. The M4 (actually M5) was too expensive to make so they made the M4-2 like a Ja camera. The M4 finder will flare less, the M4-P finder may annoy you. If you dont need a winder or 75 mm finder get a M4. Noel Edited August 25, 2010 by Xmas forgot about finder Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted August 26, 2010 Share #15 Posted August 26, 2010 Xmas, where did you get that nonsense from? Did Santa tell you? M4-P a "lego brick camera"? That is about the only dechipherable statement you make, and it is idiotic. Mechanically, the cameras are near-identical: The M4-P is a M4 minus the selftimer, but plus a hot shoe, a motor drive coupling and two additional finder frames. The parts were manufactured and the bodies hand assembled by the same procedures, and under equally rigorous quality control. Oh well, you cannot have a meaningful discussion with name plate fetishists. This post is probably a mistake. I won't repeat it. The old man with an obsolete respect for evidence 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 26, 2010 Share #16 Posted August 26, 2010 The M4-P was the first M with 6 framelines IIRC. Too many for me but it's just a matter of tastes. If you prefer classical 35/50/90/135 framelines the M4 or the M4-2 are for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen.w Posted August 26, 2010 Share #17 Posted August 26, 2010 The M4 finder will flare less, the M4-P finder may annoy you. Why would the M4 finder be less prone to flare? I've been thinking of buying one and am genuinely curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted August 28, 2010 Share #18 Posted August 28, 2010 I recommend you take a look at this page: Leica M Guide On the page you can read about the differences between the different M models. The author of the page describes among other things the differences between the M4 and M4-2/M4-P finder, stating that the original M4 finder is superior, but the difference is about splitting hairs. I really recommend this page. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Börje Norhager Posted March 6, 2019 Share #19 Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) On 11/29/2008 at 7:27 AM, lars_bergquist said: My own M4-P (a 1983 Jubilee model) is as smooth as they come. I think steel gears can be made as smooth as brass gears nowadays. Anyone old enough to remember when car engines had to be 'run in' carefully during the first two thousand kilometers or so, scrupulously avoiding high revs? That was long ago. By the way, the first M with a real motor coupling was of course the M4-2, not the M4-P, which differs only in the number of frames in the finder (six instead of four). The old man from the Age of the M3 Interesting! Does.a Super Angulon 21 mm f3,4 work well with a M4 or a M4 P? I was close to buying that lens for my M6 before someone cautioned me an said that the liht meter will not work on the M6 together with that lens! on the M4 or M4 P, was it common to use a loose light meter or what? Die the experienced newspaper photographers ”know” exposure values just by expetience, not having to mrasure with some technical gadget? I would appreciate to receive comments/answers! Canalog PS: (Here, where i live now - our little town hosts the World Biathlon Championships for the next 10 days...the opening is tomorrow! More gold medals for us to win!) Edited March 6, 2019 by Börje Norhager Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 6, 2019 Share #20 Posted March 6, 2019 An M4 has no internal light meter, so you can use an external one. There are stick-on coupled Leica ones or a nifty Voigtländer hot shoe one. The Super Angulon works well on the M6, as there is no obligation to use the internal light meter. Just use an exposure app on your smart phone or any exposure meter. Or Sunny 16. This thread is 9 years old Sadly Lars is no longer with us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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