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Guest bwcolor

Too Much for a rangefinder

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What's interesting though is that Leica prices keep on ratcheting upwards, with apparently none of the downward pressure resulting from technological and productivity improvements you see from other manufacturers.

 

I only have to look back over past price lists to see how the cost of lenses has been going up at rather more than the rate of inflation. Here in the UK, we have the little local difficult of the GBP in free-fall which makes the cost of the big three new lenses seem rather high compared to, say, to cost of the WATE 21 months ago (never mind the 30% discount at the time). To be specific: the new Summiluxes cost £3995 each, I paid around £1300 for the WATE/Finder package. I paid £1500 for a new Noctilux f1, the f0.95 is more than 4 times the price.

 

Hopefully, the investments they are making in manufacturing will begin to trim the price rises. Otherwise, I fear the cost of an M9 may be prohibitive.

 

If Leica can hike the price of the M8-02 by £1000 (based on what I paid for mine Dec06 and July07) for an alternative shutter /a scratch resistant glass and a better engineered release mechanism,I think an M9/M8 with full sensor will rise by at least another £2000 minimum.

BrianP:D

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Time for a reality check:

 

The M8.2 costs about the same as:

1. A decent watch

2. A nice guitar

3. A good amateur sports bicycle

4. A one week skiing holiday for a family of four.

5. One year's worth of Iraq war per USA citizen.

 

Not particularly expensive imo....

 

 

I like your reasoning.When I am trying to justify an expensive item ( my new Eizo monitor for example) I worked out the total cost and divided it buy the number of weeks I was likely to use it for (then days) and it became so cheap that I bought a colour munki as well.

BrianP:D

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If Leica can hike the price of the M8-02 by £1000 (based on what I paid for mine Dec06 and July07) for an alternative shutter /a scratch resistant glass and a better engineered release mechanism,I think an M9/M8 with full sensor will rise by at least another £2000 minimum.

BrianP:D

 

If that is their long term strategy then I think that the DRF will become very very exclusive and a lot of well-off but not 'rich' customers will have little option but to abandon Leica.

 

It would be a pity, but I fear that it is going to happen.

 

Jeff

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There is a lot of speculation here. I think the only ones that can have an idea of the price/sales charts of the M cameras are the Leica marketing experts. We tend to forget that Leica only needs 0.001 % of the Canon/Nikon customer base size and those in turn probably need no more than 0.1% of the world population. So that comes down to 0.0001% of all humans.... Don't forget that they could not even build more than 15.000 cameras a year even if they could sell them. The DRF is already an extremely exclusive product, whether you like it or not.

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Let me see... "Leica Marketing Experts". I would have thought that the terms "Marketing" and "Expert" are mutually exclusive in the context of Leica. Digilux 3 anyone?

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If Leica can hike the price of the M8-02 by £1000 (based on what I paid for mine Dec06 and July07) for an alternative shutter /a scratch resistant glass and a better engineered release mechanism,I think an M9/M8 with full sensor will rise by at least another £2000 minimum.

BrianP:D

 

Of course, the original camera had increased in price by £300 from its launch to £3290 though that price diddn't seem to stick and they offered a sizeable cash back. For now, they're working through the initial rush but I don't expect it will be long before we see various schemes to prop-up sales. Maybe even now they are dusting off those unsold Digilux 3's for their moment of glory...

 

If you look at the difference between the M8 and the M8.2 and accept that part of the difference is they are just making the camera better these days, it's tough to see beyond the price rise being there to bolster margins. Maybe the glass costs a bit more, maybe the black paint job, but otherwise, not much has changed.

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Let me see... "Leica Marketing Experts". I would have thought that the terms "Marketing" and "Expert" are mutually exclusive in the context of Leica. Digilux 3 anyone?

:D I cannot but feel that there is some justification in this remark. Let's hope the cooperation with Porsche Consulting extends to this field as well.

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Let me see... "Leica Marketing Experts". I would have thought that the terms "Marketing" and "Expert" are mutually exclusive in the context of Leica. Digilux 3 anyone?

 

 

When it comes to price rises I think it was Mark N who pointed out that 1 stop cost about £1000 on leica glass. He was right with the new 21 and 24 lux lenses.I think Leica need to realize that whatever your target market share their is a limit to what is acceptable and affordable irrespective of a customers disposable income.Eventually customers will say enough is enough.I was almost to the point of ordering a 21 lux.I decided that £4600 for a lens with veiwfinder and cut filter was more than I was prepared to pay.I may be the only person who will look at it like that.It will be interesting to see how well these new lenses sell to other than the people who are using their cameras to earn money as against myself who enjoys using M cameras for the pleasure they give me.

BrianP

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When it comes to price rises I think it was Mark N who pointed out that 1 stop cost about £1000 on leica glass. He was right with the new 21 and 24 lux lenses.I think Leica need to realize that whatever your target market share their is a limit to what is acceptable and affordable irrespective of a customers disposable income.Eventually customers will say enough is enough.I was almost to the point of ordering a 21 lux.I decided that £4600 for a lens with veiwfinder and cut filter was more than I was prepared to pay.I may be the only person who will look at it like that.It will be interesting to see how well these new lenses sell to other than the people who are using their cameras to earn money as against myself who enjoys using M cameras for the pleasure they give me.

BrianP

 

It's more like an extra stop doubles the cost of the lens. For example (in round numbers)

 

50mm Elmar - £500

50mm Summicron - £1000

50mm Summilux - £2000

50mm Noctilux - £4000

50mm Noctilux ASPH - £6500

 

24mm Elmar - £1300

24mm Elmarit - £2200

24mm summilux - £4000

 

And so it goes on...

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Time for a reality check:

 

The M8.2 costs about the same as:

1. A decent watch

2. A nice guitar

3. A good amateur sports bicycle

4. A one week skiing holiday for a family of four.

5. One year's worth of Iraq war per USA citizen.

 

Not particularly expensive imo....

 

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And what you are prepared to pay for it!

When Leica anounced the M8 I spoke to Ffordes and placed an order provided it was under £3000. If Leica anouced an M9 with full size sensor I would not pay more than Canon 1Ds mk3 money for it ie max £4500.

BrianP

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And what you are prepared to pay for it!

BrianP

 

Exactly the point of this thread. Everybodies comfort level is different. Note, however, that I did not list extravagant things, just stuff that most of us would judge fairly normal...

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just stuff that most of us would judge fairly normal...

 

That's just elitist bollocks. I'm surprised you didn't include a case of 'drinkable" wine, a couple of "okay" handbags, and a barely "wearable" suit as suitable points of comparison to the £4000 M8.2 body.

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I'm with Ian on this one.

 

You can buy a very nice watch for a grand, and a very decent bike for similar money.

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And a very nice camera for 700 $. But that is not what we are doing, is it?

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That's just elitist bollocks. I'm surprised you didn't include a case of 'drinkable" wine, a couple of "okay" handbags, and a barely "wearable" suit as suitable points of comparison to the £4000 M8.2 body.

 

If you were to go to guitar forums or bicycle forums you would get very few members to agree with you.

I would, btw, add different things;

a mid-range hifi system, or the writeoff on a new car in the first month.... Again, things that are not regarded as extravagant in our western society.

 

I don't happen to think that "elitist" is a bad word. Face reality, as soon as you get into the range of Leicas, you are joining an elite group of photographers, even if your political convictions are bright red...A thought: is that why the dot is red???

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I'm with Ian on this one.

 

You can buy a very nice watch for a grand, and a very decent bike for similar money.

 

We live in a crazzy world and one of the hardest things to define is value for money.I am wearing a £50 watch which keeps too all intents perfect time,my Rolex keeps reasonable time .Graham Obrey broke the blue ribon event of cycling a few years ago (the hour record)on a bike he made in his shed the total cost was probably about £2000.

BrianP

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If you were to go to guitar forums or bicycle forums you would get very few members to agree with you.

I would, btw, add different things;

a mid-range hifi system, or the writeoff on a new car in the first month.... Again, things that are not regarded as extravagant in our western society.

 

I don't happen to think that "elitist" is a bad word. Face reality, as soon as you get into the range of Leicas, you are joining an elite group of photographers, even if your political convictions are bright red...A thought: is that why the dot is red???

 

Probably, thats why they had a change of mind with the black M8-2 and used black dots.

BrianP

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Guest kalokeri
Time for a reality check: ...

 

Ok, the M8 (or 8.2) isn´t a bargain. In Germany the M8 costs close to EURO 4.000,-- and the M8.2 nearly EURO 5.000,--. Considering this and the image quality the question is, if the camera is worth this amount of money.

 

I admit that I´m tempted to use a digital rangefinder camera. I tried the M8 but that didn´t convince me. The quality of the files is on the level of a good dslr like - just for example - the Nikon D200 or Canon 40D. The quality of the jpeg´s is worse - even with firmware 2.0.

 

Everybody has to make his own decision. Mine is as personal as it could be but I can´t justify to buy a M8. But I wouldn´t buy an expensive watch, neither.

 

Thomas

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Face reality, as soon as you get into the range of Leicas, you are joining an elite group of photographers …

 

Isn't that a real shame, that only an elite group of rich people can enjoy the experience of using a DRF.

 

Lets hope it does not continue to be so.

 

Jeff

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