mitchell baum Posted November 9, 2008 Share #41 Posted November 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mark, Thanks for another great, edifying and fun post. People like me would be lost without people like you to provide great cameras and other wonders. Best, Mitchell Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 9, 2008 Posted November 9, 2008 Hi mitchell baum, Take a look here Anatomy of the Leica M8 Framelines. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share #42 Posted November 9, 2008 You're right, it does depend on the difference in tension between the two springs... but I've never had any trouble with it - and I have both versions of the MATE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vertekijker Posted November 9, 2008 Share #43 Posted November 9, 2008 Thank you for giving us so much pleasure again, Mark! My M8 is for the update in Solms right now - it made me a bit nervous to see all the things that could go wrong with an assembly like this... Ignorance could have been bliss, but on the other hand I find your work also most instructive and captivating! ------------------------ Frans Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted November 9, 2008 Share #44 Posted November 9, 2008 mark truly fascinating...chapeau! Being a complete idiot when it comes to taking things apart I can only guess what attention to detail and discipline is involved. I one tried to fix a sticky shutter on a minox and the lens fell out..LOL:eek: thanks for posting andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchell baum Posted November 12, 2008 Share #45 Posted November 12, 2008 I sent my locked up M8 in for repair in New Jersey, and asked how much installing new frame lines would cost. They said $800. I said thanks anyway. I usually have static subjects, so I'll live with chimping for the present. Best, Mitchell Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 12, 2008 Share #46 Posted November 12, 2008 Hold the press and a thousand appologies from me to Leica service who returned my camera perfect--it is my first verision MATE that is making the frame selector stick when moving from the 35 setting to the 50 setting. Moving beween any of the other settings does not require a nudge from me other than when moving the selection from the 35 to the 50 setting and not vice versa. It seems the spring in the frame selector set up in the camera is vying for authority with the spring in the MATE when moving from the 35 setting to the 50 setting and at the moment the MATE spring is winning the tug-o-war. I wonder if the spring that is aparent when looking at the tri elmar from the barrel end is in need of adjustment. Or, perhaps the MATE and camera will eventually decide to start dancing together. Does anyone else have any experience with this? The 1st version MATE is well known for frameline problems. If you send it in, Leica can make it work correctly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Root Posted November 13, 2008 Share #47 Posted November 13, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The 1st version MATE is well known for frameline problems. If you send it in, Leica can make it work correctly. It is reassuring to know that others have had this issue adjusted on a MATE. I'm headed through New York in a few weeks and will try the MATE on another body and if it acts the same I will know it is the MATE and will send it in for adjustment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
epand56 Posted November 13, 2008 Share #48 Posted November 13, 2008 Mark, very interesting and professionally done essay. I did not even imagine how it was made. Now i know why I will be charged 650 euros to have the mask upgraded in my M8 that should be arrived at Leica in this very hours (the only upgrade I decided to do). Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us on this small but crucial part of the camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephan_w Posted November 13, 2008 Share #49 Posted November 13, 2008 very interesting! Can you say how thick those masks are? Are they painted or just chemically blackened? Probably they are photoetched, so it would be possible to make some custom framelines :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share #50 Posted November 13, 2008 Silly me, I should have measured the thickness - pretty thin, 0.05mm I would say. As for the finish, matt (flat) black, some sort of surface chemical treatment I would think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephan_w Posted November 13, 2008 Share #51 Posted November 13, 2008 Silly me, I should have measured the thickness - pretty thin, 0.05mm I would say. As for the finish, matt (flat) black, some sort of surface chemical treatment I would think. well, next time you open it, if you don't mind, let me know :-) it should be not a big technical problem to make such frames by photoetching (unless they use another process, but as those framelines exists since some decades, I don't see any other process to make accurate and fine line then with etching) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
echorec Posted November 15, 2008 Share #52 Posted November 15, 2008 Mark,thanks a lot for your time & work, I always loved anatomy Me too, thanks for sharing this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_dernie Posted November 15, 2008 Share #53 Posted November 15, 2008 Another fascinating lesson in Leica M forensics! Thank you, Mark. One thought - I'm curious as to how much this design has changed since the M3 was developed. Aside from the increase in number of framelines available, of course. Do you suppose the concept has remained virtually unchanged since the 1950's? If so, that is quite a testament to the ingenuity of the original designers. Doug The M3 viewfinder is a completely different, and apparently more accurate but more expensive design. It has a quite different light path. The M2 (which was originally the "budget" M) was popular because the 35mm frames matched many PJs favourite lens. All subsequent Leica rangefinder/viewfinder assemblies have been evolutions of the M2 design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 15, 2008 Share #54 Posted November 15, 2008 The M3 viewfinder is a completely different, and apparently more accurate but more expensive design. It has a quite different light path. The M2 (which was originally the "budget" M) was popular because the 35mm frames matched many PJs favourite lens. All subsequent Leica rangefinder/viewfinder assemblies have been evolutions of the M2 design. I would like to see this explained as far as the differences in light paths from the M3 to the M2 and more current M cameras. To my knowledge of working on M3's and looking at the images of a disassemble M8 the light paths seem to be very similar if not the same although on the M3 the frame line mask is in the front and on a M8 it is turned to the side. But all in all the light path is still the same. Light comes in the viewfinder front window and gets reflected to the right by a prism. It then goes through other lenses and get combined with the frame lines and the light coming in the rangefinder front window and then goes through another mirror or prism and is displayed at the eye piece. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted December 26, 2008 Share #55 Posted December 26, 2008 The M3 viewfinder is a completely different, and apparently more accurate but more expensive design. It has a quite different light path. The M2 (which was originally the "budget" M) was popular because the 35mm frames matched many PJs favourite lens. All subsequent Leica rangefinder/viewfinder assemblies have been evolutions of the M2 design. Quite right, Frank. Despite their overall similarities, the M3 finder is more sophisticated and both looks and feels far more substantial than the M2 finder, and it always draws a gasp of appreciation from a person on first seeing it. Still, I'm amazed at how much more Leica has been able to squeeze into the viewfinder in cameras that followed the M2. I'm in awe of the ingenuity of the original design and of the flexibility it has shown in the 50+ years since it appeared. No wonder the president of Zeiss Ikon paid a visit to Ernst Leitz II to tell him "Congratulations on your great victory" when the M3 was introduced. It's like looking at the last mechanical calculator. Brilliant ingenuity, requiring the highest craftsmanship to make it work, and today still functional despite being totally out of date. Mark, I was away and missed this thread when you first published it. I'm glad you referred to it in another thread or it would have passed me by. How you have the insight, the fortitude, the inclination to do this kind of thing is beyond me, and then your ability to sit down and explain it so well is a gift. I think in your case the Forum should drop the designation "Erfahrener Benutzer" and apply the moniker "Meisterbenutzer" or even "Erhabener Benutzer." Let's see--Digilux 2, M8, M8 finder frames--are there any 'anatomies' I've missed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share #56 Posted December 26, 2008 HC, thanks for your kind words, those three are the complete set up to now, apart from the minor battery charger one. I plan to do an "Anatomy of the M8 shutter" at some point which will spill the beans on how it works; my new Tektronix MSO2024 digital storage scope is just itching to explain all... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 26, 2008 Share #57 Posted December 26, 2008 Mark, I am eagerly awaiting this next installment. Are you doing all this sub-millisecond exploration with the black M8 body that we have come to know so well in its parts? Even though there may be secrets of the shutter anatomy in the M8.1 and M8.2 that may still be concealed, I'm dying to know what are the steps in cocking the shutter, determining that the shutter has completely reset, setting the curtain separation and speed, firing the shutter, determining that the shutter has fired, and starting the loop over again. Actually printing the circuit diagram and a block diagram of the microcode that you find might be in poor taste, but I think a layman's discussion of what signals and controls exist would be instructive. Also, how does the time to reset everything depend on the voltage from the batteries? Is there significant variation in the time to reset from one shot to the next? Either of those could be involved in the occasional reports we hear of shutter problems, which continue to be seen in the M8.2. The Copal shutter has been engineered into dozens of cameras now, so this will hardly be revealing key corporate secrets. Although a picture of your test setup, required for a proper anatomy lesson, might turn a few stomachs. regards, scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted December 26, 2008 Share #58 Posted December 26, 2008 Mark, I also missed this when you posted it, since I wasn't really reading the forum at that time. Great work again! Any chance of releasing these dissections in PDF format? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliveoil Posted June 18, 2014 Share #59 Posted June 18, 2014 I need your help... The plastic block attached to the framelines has taken off and is loose inside the rangefinder ¿ is it possible to remove it removing the top plate out of my m8? may damage the focusing system if attached to some mobile part Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliveoil Posted June 19, 2014 Share #60 Posted June 19, 2014 I need your help... The plastic block attached to the framelines has taken off and is loose inside the rangefinder ¿ is it possible to remove it removing the top plate out of my m8? may damage the focusing system if attached to some mobile part Well... i successfully take the "cube" out of the rangefinder group... now its time to consider to put it on its place... i think it requires to remove this: removing this group may cause a rangefinder missalingment? Thanks for your help Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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