Erwin on Apples & Oranges

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Like golf, in the case of the Porsche. Every try to get a set of golf clubs in a C4?

 

JC

 

What's the problem? --- Leave the wife/girlfriend at home and the golf clubs on her seat !

 

The problems with (most) females in a Porsche is that they allways ask you not to got too fast -- and fast from them is pretty slow for us . And man and woman together on a golf course leads to debates infinitively more heated than the debates in this forum over magenta, focus shift, frame lines, banding and all the other M8 stuff. In other words, the solution to leave her at home not only allows to combine Porsche and golf, but also reduces divorce rates.

 

Just my two cents during lunch

 

Georg

[Photoskeptic]

Frankly, comparing a D3 to an M8 is plain silly. Different cameras for different uses. Ditto comparing ANY DSLR to a rangefinder. And forget those endless pixel-peeping IQ comparisons, too. Geez, I'm as sick of these comparisons as I am of the election bs.

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[farnz]

What's the problem? --- Leave the wife/girlfriend at home and the golf clubs on her seat ! ...

A man who's got his priorities sorted out.

 

Pete.

[pascal_meheut]

Can't you replace "D3 & M8" by "Nikon F & M3", "Nikon F2 & M4-P", "Nikon F3/F4 & M6", "Nikon F5/F6 & M7" in Puts article ?

 

Maybe he just noticed that SLRs are more "versatile" than rangefinders?

[pgk]

Another, oh, so boring, thread. What is new here. Comparing a dSLR with a rangefinder yet again, give me a break, please!

[ptomsu]

This is more than booooring!

[offshore]

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"The Nikon D3 blows away the Leica M8 when you look at the possibilities, speed and range of photographic assignments that you can cope with. The D3 can handle almost every task with ease and good performance. The operative speed is impressive, the sensitivity of the sensor is amazing and the scope of customization leaves no wishes. The Leica M8 is more restricted in its area of deployment, but can score points when the photographer needs to be intimately involved in the subject or scene and wants to operate at close range, where selective sharpness, the precise framing and the conscious focus are required. "

 

So saith EP here:

 

Nikon D3 and Leica M8.2

 

Let´s see the D3 do B&W IR, color IR, color and B&W all in the same camera, Erwin.

[Paul Hart]

Another, oh, so boring, thread. What is new here. Comparing a dSLR with a rangefinder yet again, give me a break, please!

 

That's why I called the thread 'Erwin on Apples & Oranges'.

 

Is Uncle Erwin comparing things that he mistakenly thinks are similar, or contrasting things that he well knows are very different?

 

I don't know, because I found his article flowery and, er, boring and I've forgotten most of what he said.

[Guest DuquesneG]

Can't you replace "D3 & M8" by "Nikon F & M3", "Nikon F2 & M4-P", "Nikon F3/F4 & M6", "Nikon F5/F6 & M7" in Puts article ?

 

Maybe he just noticed that SLRs are more "versatile" than rangefinders?

 

Wow, I was thinking the same thing.

[pgk]

That's why I called the thread 'Erwin on Apples & Oranges'.

 

Is Uncle Erwin comparing things that he mistakenly thinks are similar, or contrasting things that he well knows are very different?

 

I don't know, because I found his article flowery and, er, boring and I've forgotten most of what he said.

 

The apples and oranges might refer to the difference between someone who uses photographic equipment and someone who plays with it. Ermin is helpful technically on optics but there is a lot more to equipment than purely optics. I'm sure that the D3 is an extremely capable camera (I use Canon dSLRs so I haven't tried one) but comparisons to the M8 are (and IMO) a complete waste of time because if either will do the work you have for it then you don't understand the choice and are probably not using anything of either's full capability.

 

As an example you will find a couple of shots I posted in the landscape section from Scotland. These were shot on my M8/35 because I carry this lightweight and discrete camera alongside my housed Canon underwater cameras which weight a great deal and fit in several Pelicases. I have no wish to carry another heavy case full of dSLRs - it poses yet more concerns over carriage which are sufficient already. The M8 fulfills my requirements for a small portable interchangable lens camera and I think that it does so admirably - but if you offered me a D3 in exchange, despite its capabilities the answer would be NO!

[Jager]

When I bought my M8 two years ago my D200 quickly languished in non-use. I've long had a bias towards rangefinders and the new digital M from Leica made my photography world nearly complete (I am merely awaiting a FF M to make it completely so). I honestly thought I'd never make substantive use of a digital SLR again.

 

But in January of this year I bought a Harley Road King. Its heavier vibration compared to my BMW motorcycles made me immediately worry about my M8 and those expensive Leica lenses. So I dusted off that long-unused D200.

 

Alas, the very high IQ of the M8 will spoil you. And, since I ride a lot, that prompted me to want a digital SLR of comparable IQ to the Leica. Which led me to the D3.

 

I won't belabor the argument of which is better. They're simply different. Better at different things. My M8 remains my favorite camera. It's the one that travels every day to work with me. It's the one I pick up when my wife and I head out for dinner, or to the bookstore, or to Starbucks for a latte. It remains the wonderful, inconspicuous, picture-taking instrument that Leica M's have always been.

 

But the D3 has remarkable strengths of its own. In particular, its extraordinary low-light capability, long the domain of Leica, is game-changing. I had a wedding to shoot a few months ago. I had long planned to shoot it with my M8. Alas, once I saw what the D3 could do in available light, it quickly became a no brainer as to which would get the call. The other photographer there, shooting a conventional Canon setup (DSLR, zoom lens, and strobe) looked quizzically at my flashless setup at one point. "ISO 6400", I said. The look on their face was priceless.

 

Both systems have their place. Puts noted "...Both systems had advantages and limitations and therefore many photographers had an M3 and later the M2/4 with wide angle and an F with telelens".

 

Really, seems to me that things haven't changed all that much.

[terrycioni]

For weeks and months on this very forum we had some pro shooters and others saying they could do all of their work with a rangefinder and more specifically the Leica M8.

 

I believe and I am sure Mr. Puts does as well - different tools for different jobs - Leica is in the SLR business so too they understand this concept which was often dismissed here in the early days of our enthusiasm for the M8.

 

So in my opinion it is a discussion comparing apples and oranges - we decided for our own tastes which is the apple and which is the orange or banana.

 

The local Reuters photography staffer and friend has an M8 - which he likes. When covering election night in the current Prime Minister's Calgary riding - he shot with his DSLRs and several very long lenses (media are kept on platforms or shooting positions 30 to 70 meters way) and it is always the worse of lighting conditions - high ISO, fast camera response, long lenses, and reliability are not options. His picture of the Prime Minister (winning) was on the front page of most major newspapers and certainly the two national papers.

 

Best regards to all. Terry.

[blatent liar]

A Canon G9/G10 may draw a closer Apples to Oranges comparison, when small gear and inconspicuous nature are weighed in the environs of proximate photo taking. I am guilty of owning a G from Canon, and in the RAW files could argue a case that it outshines the D.

 

What is desireable in the creation of Photos through the M8 is the Innate Manual Creative work-flow which we may have enjoyed when we first borrowed gear from our fathers to complete Photo school. Like our First K1000. Nostalgia perhaps, slower yes, even antique by comparison to the D, but 95% my photo.

 

I would call Putz' comparison Apples to Bananas.

[mooky]

There are all kinds of 'better than' camera's out there. It has been said before I am sure, that a Leica rangefinder 'taught me how to see', and it also taught me how to anticipate the action in front of me and be ready.

 

That is because we can see an image about to take place outside of the frame lines, with an SLR we have to kind of have one eye 'tipped' over the top of the camera to do the same. A Leica rangefinder is a 'visual luxury' that way, that's why it's a different animal, a minimalists visual recording tool. Dah. Heck, even my latest and greatest purchase, a Chrome SL with a second generation 35 Elmarit is more contemplative allowing and minimalist than a super-duper everything MgP Nikon or whatever.

 

Ease of use and non-distractive designs will be this way. That's fine by me. Old argument, same answers.

[charlesphoto99]

Yes, but like many of us I use my D3 in primarily manual mode with manual focus lenses - same as my M8. Sometimes I do slip in to Aperture Priority mode - the Nikon matrix metering being far superior to the A metering in the M8 (really no fault of Leica's - just the difference between rf and slr).

 

But it has to be stressed that "it's not the camera stupid." The camera only frees the photographer up to bring across his vision. For some that may involve a Fuji 6X17 - for others a Holga. It's a tool - and there's a whole fruit basket of them out there.

[BerndReini]

My friend owns a D300. Now I know that it is not a D3 but the other day I went out and shot with it, and I have to say that after almost two years of shooting with my M8 (after I sold my 5D), the autofocus let me miss shots I would get with my M8 (focus being on the ear of a subject rather than the eyes etc.) and it was just tedious to shoot with such a big camera. I have gotten very fast with the M8 and I intuitively know where I am as far as focus and aperture on the lens are concerned and I would not want to go back to an SLR.

[jrc]

<snip>It has been said before I am sure, that a Leica rangefinder 'taught me how to see', and it also taught me how to anticipate the action in front of me and be ready. That is because we can see an image about to take place outside of the frame lines, with an SLR we have to kind of have one eye 'tipped' over the top of the camera to do the same. <snip>

 

I have to say that when I'm shooting moving street subjects with my D3 or D300 I have no awareness of putting the viewfinder to my eye -- I look at what I'm shooting until I'm ready to shoot, and then shoot, always a little wide, with cropping in mind. (I do the same with the M8.) If I'm shooting slow, then I don't have to worry about framing because I can move the viewfinder around...Maybe this viewfinder issue really has more to do with people who shoot street "art" rather than street journalism, and who work within the "full-frame aesthetic" where they reject the idea of cropping; and therefore emphasize edges.

 

James Nachtwey's work, which always has a strong aesthetic component, even though it's conflict photography, is shot with DSLRs with what I assume is very precise framing. And to tell the truth, the M8 frames are not that precise. When I first started using an M8, that was a real issue. If you really want to do razor-cuts along the edge of the frame, you might be better off with a 100% viewfinder like the D3's...

 

For me, the big issue with a Leica comes down to a size/IQ equation. If I could get the Leica's IQ and small fast lenses in a DSLR the same size as an M8, I might very well go that way. But I can't. I tried with a Pentax K10D, but the IQ (despite the excellent Pentax pancakes) wasn't there. If Nikon came out with a FF D60-size camera and some upgraded primes, I might get rid of the Leica.

 

JC

[Paul Hart]

If Nikon came out with a FF D60-size camera and some upgraded primes, I might get rid of the Leica.

 

JC

 

Does the D700 not fit the bill on the camera front? I've never handled a D60, but I own the D700 and it can't be so much larger.

 

Current wideangle Nikon primes are weak at the moment, but there is some good stuff from the AI and AIS era that is entirely compatible and very cheap, and of course there's the Zeiss option.

[bill]

It seems to me that Mr. Puts has once again achieved a couple of pages of free publicity on the internet's premier Leica site. He could compare an M8 with an electric can opener and achieve the same result. I am beginning to think that he is not as green as he is cabbage-looking...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[SJP]

could compare an M8 with an electric can opener

No you can't open cans with a M. Removing beer bottle caps however works just fine.