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marknorton

Hot Air and Broken Promises

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Yes there is a basic rule in life. 'Pacta sunt servanda'. Promises must be kept. Anyone who breaches his promise is not trusty anymore. Shame on you Leica.

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what do you think about the business way?

 

-discontinue M8

-lower price of M8.2 at M8 price

-upgrade M8 fully as M8.2 to follow the their old promises

-improve service and it would be good as expected of $5000 cameras

-classic M8 will be more collectionable and expensive than M8.2?

-provide a la carte for M8.2 like some features for new M8 users (1/8000, black chrome, framelines?)

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what do you think about the business way?

 

-discontinue M8

-lower price of M8.2 at M8 price

-upgrade M8 fully as M8.2 to follow the their old promises

-improve service and it would be good as expected of $5000 cameras

 

I think you left out the last step:

 

- go bankrupt

 

As far as I can see, to upgrade the existing M8 'forever' would almost obliterate new M8 sales. I don't think Leica can survive on those terms. I'd be happy for Mr Lee to explain why I'm wrong, but I can't figure it out for myself.

 

Chris

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'Pacta sunt servanda'.

 

Ict,

 

Sadly I think Leica has adopted the French way... et comme le dit si bien l’adage ‘’les promesses n’engagent que ceux qui les écoutent’’ (Promises only engage the idiots who listen to them).

 

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...I think Leica has adopted the French way... Promises only engage the idiots who listen to them...

My French way is somewhat different. When i'm faced to defendants like that my job is to sue them right now and the first exhibits of my brief would have been Mr Daniel's statement above and the press release hereunder if i had purchased an M8.

QUOTE

While other digital cameras quickly become outdated and are replaced by newer models, our new concept extends the value retention that stands for the Leica brand. Over time, we will gradually offer new product features and developments as upgrade options... Our customers can therefore still invest in the photographic tools they need without worrying that they will miss out on improvements and technological developments along the way. We are confident that this is the right approach for ensuring customer satisfaction and allowing them to continue to sharpen their vision and refine their skills with the new digital LEICA M8. Our efforts will be focused constantly on giving them the best that the world of photography has to offer.

UNQUOTE

Leica to offer M8 shutter upgrade: Digital Photography Review

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Thank you, Chris, for stating your point so clearly. I am 100% with you.

I will remember Leica's decision the next time they make any promises.

And I have learned that Leica as a company that puts quality and customer satisfaction first is a matter of the past.

It will be good to keep this in mind when considering future purchases.

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Leica will have a better handle on the numbers than I do, but I seriously question how much M8.2 revenue would be lost by making this function available to users already paying for the shutter upgrade. What I can be certain of is the revenue they will lose from me. 2 full upgrades, 3 fast new lenses. Call it £16,000; €20,000; $25,000. OK, these prices include tax and dealer and importer margin but you'll catch my drift.

 

My own customers benefit from the same products however long they've been with me. Sure, the older, longer standing ones pay upgrade and subscription charges but my protecting their investment is rewarded by their loyalty. I have 3 M8's, 19 M lenses; not as much as some but more than most and the result of a previous show of faith that Leica will do the right thing by its customers. Don't fall into the same trap!

 

The problem is that when it comes to digital rangefinder cameras, Leica are a monopoly. I've never particularly embraced Zeiss and CV lenses but certainly recognise they keep Leica on their toes. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Summarits. The same is not true of the camera bodies and what we badly need is another committed manufacturer producing a camera which will take M lenses. Leica were shaken to the core when Epson launched the R-D1 in 2004 but sadly Epson's heart was not in it and now Leica is in a field of one.

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...this is, frankly, complete and utter bollocks. So a marketing claim was made and the world has moved on in the meantime. Big fat hairy deal.

 

Live with it, or sell your Leica kit. They are clearly lying hounds who cannot be trusted to work a vending machine.

 

This sort of whine makes me livid. It is totally pointless.

 

 

Again, I find myself quoting me.

 

Rarely have I witnessed such a depressing display of mass petulance. A statement was sought - it has been made. It is not surprising. Get over it and move on. It either matters to you - in which case go ahead, vote with your feet - or it doesn't - in which case shut up and stop whining. If some people around here put as much effort into mastering their M8s as they do into bemoaning their lot - with, of course, perfect 20-20 hindsight - this would be a far less miserable sub-forum.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Leica were shaken to the core when Epson launched the R-D1 in 2004 but sadly Epson's heart was not in it and now Leica is in a field of one.

 

Mayybe if Epson hadn't brought out the RD-1, Leica wouldn't have rushed out the M8 and people would have had nothing to moan about for two years. But, I seem to recall in forums past that people were moaning on and on about "where's my digital M?" "I must have one now!"

 

Maybe, they'd have brought out the M8.2 (calLed an M8, of course), this year, as their first digital M, which is quite possibly when they were planning to do so in the first place had Epson not pissed in their pot and then run away.

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But, this is what the forum is for, Bill ... if everybody is happy with their purchase, all is out taking pictures.

 

I don't care much about the M to be honest, I'm here for the R10 ... which still remains as a promise.

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Again, I find myself quoting me.

 

Rarely have I witnessed such a depressing display of mass petulance. A statement was sought - it has been made. It is not surprising. Get over it and move on. It either matters to you - in which case go ahead, vote with your feet - or it doesn't - in which case shut up and stop whining. If some people around here put as much effort into mastering their M8s as they do into bemoaning their lot - with, of course, perfect 20-20 hindsight - this would be a far less miserable sub-forum.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

I quote you

it means I agree at 100%. Lets see how much money goes in Leica 1 year later.

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I think you left out the last step:

 

- go bankrupt

 

As far as I can see, to upgrade the existing M8 'forever' would almost obliterate new M8 sales. I don't think Leica can survive on those terms.

Chris

 

I think M8 sales would actually increase because people would want to buy into the system that would be upgradeable. Leica would also see considerable income from current owners having their cameras upgraded.

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From a business point of view it makes some sense to keep the M8.2 with some unique features OR make the upgrade to M8.2 full version more expensive than the M8.2 - M8 retail price difference.

I would not be surprised if the shutter recocking becomes available later e.g. when the M9, M10 etc. are released. This would still 'keep the promise' as they did not detail any time frame.

 

The concept that the original M8 was a beta version does not properly reflect the flurry of interest it caused when it was first released, this lasted for about 1½ year so well beyond all the blobs, streaks and IR filter issues. Leica did handle the more obvious teething problems and we did get AWB, SDHC, auto-ISO etc. implemented later for free (yes FREE). So all in all they are doing OK from my point of view.

 

Nevertheless we still need a hacker to give us an anarchistic solution to the current problem

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Again, I find myself quoting me.

 

Rarely have I witnessed such a depressing display of mass petulance. A statement was sought - it has been made. It is not surprising. Get over it and move on. It either matters to you - in which case go ahead, vote with your feet - or it doesn't - in which case shut up and stop whining. If some people around here put as much effort into mastering their M8s as they do into bemoaning their lot - with, of course, perfect 20-20 hindsight - this would be a far less miserable sub-forum.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

I'm pretty much with you on this.

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Unfortunately Leica bought all this petulance on themselves with their failure, at the first opportunity, to properly implement the widely announced and proclaimed upgrade programme.

 

I wont be buying or selling up at this moment, I'll wait and see how this all pans out with future releases.

 

Jeff

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My French way is somewhat different. When i'm faced to defendants like that my job is to sue them right now and the first exhibits of my brief would have been Mr Daniel's statement above and the press release hereunder if i had purchased an M8.

 

Ict,

 

I'm not defending or excusing Mr. Daniel. I fully agree with you: "Pacta sunt servanda". Unfortunately, ‘’les promesses n’engagent que ceux qui les écoutent’’ is a sentence we have heard many time to our politicians...

 

My comment I was intended to show my deception for this commercial behavior.

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I think Leica was real disingenous thinking they could sell both M8 and 8.2 at the same time. They really should have discontinued the M8 and sold off existing stock at a discount. And then given M8 owners a FULL upgrade. hell, by the time I do a $2000 upgrade (I'm including the vulcanite covering which I consider superior) I'm over $6800 into this camera, more than a brand new M8.2. For that type of change I deserve a full feature upgrade - and maybe even a little something extra not found in the M8.2! First time buyers could then have the M8.2 (maybe with a choice of shutters but at the same price).

 

At times it seems that the Leica marketing dept is run by the same people running a certain presidential campaign here in the states. Can you say "erratic"?

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I think Leica was real disingenous thinking they could sell both M8 and 8.2 at the same time. They really should have discontinued the M8 and sold off existing stock at a discount.

 

Err, wouldn't this still be selling both cameras? I imagine selling off existing stock is exactly what Leica are doing with the M8.

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. ...For this reason, the discreet mode will stay reserved for the M8.2, as it is our flagship and it also has a significantly higher price than the M8. I kindly ask you for you understanding regarding this decision and hope that it will not affect your enthusiasm for Leica.

 

Best regards

 

Stefan Daniel

 

Well, what this means then is that the original Leica M8 (the first digital M no less) will never be a comparable camera to all previous Leica rangefinders. I never thought a situation would ever arise where it would be necessary to remind Leica that ALL Leica M rangefinder cameras were known to have quiet, discreet shutter sounds, and therefore be recommended for inconspicuous, respectful work, in often sensitive areas. No longer it seems, can this established fact be predetermined. This model fails to perform as previous models did and therefore, for the first time, cannot belong in this specific category. Do Leica realise how destructive to reputation this is?

 

I've chosen to use previous Leica M rangefinders to photograph in hospital operating theatres, during cathedral services, in schools during examinations, for theatre and music performances and also during television programme filming. I have never chosen my M8 for working in similar situations because I know it would fail. After the shutter upgrade I believe it would still be questionable for some of my work. I was relieved when Leica made available the correction for the frameline design fault, but the M8 is still not quite there: the discreet mode would retrieve this model. This is all it needs, and then it would be finished. The M9 could then move into unhindered new territory. For Leica to deny this shutter necessity to its first digital rangefinder (and the people who bought it) is unforgivable.

 

JGW.

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"Oh, the World owes me a livin'..."

 

Change the record, someone. Leica is a BUSINESS not a CHARITY.

 

I'm just waiting for the following statements:

 

"Leica should change their business plan totally and give me what I want, because I am, after all, me."

 

"If anyone around here is happy with the M8 and with Leica I want them caught and shot immediately."

 

"Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, or I shall scream and scream and scream until I am sick!"

 

Grow up, people. Start behaving like the adults you are, instead of walking around with a bottom lip like a Volvo bumper. You have the world's only viable rangefinder digital camera, with the best glass in the world to use on it and you are behaving like a bunch of maiden aunts who have just had a hoodie fart in front of them in the bus queue.

 

Good grief.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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